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Cider Digest #0980
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #980, 7 July 2002
Cider Digest #980 7 July 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Mainstream US apples for cider-making? (Scott Smith) ("McGonegal, Charles")
Freezing yeast (Andrew Lea)
Re: Cider Digest #979, 2 July 2002 (Lee Elliott)
Concentrating apple cider (Lee Elliott)
White Oak Cider announces Kingston Black release (morgan)
Re: Cider Digest #979, 2 July 2002 (peter goddard)
RE:Mainstream US apples for cider-making? (Rocco Rizzo)
Re:Cider Digest #979, 2 July 2002 (fagandr@juno.com)
My new place...finally an orchard (Terence Bradshaw)
Re: [NAFEX] My new place...finally an orchard (Doug Woodard)
Mainstream apples for cider (=?iso-8859-1?q?Martin=20Par=E9?=)
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Subject: Mainstream US apples for cider-making? (Scott Smith)
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <cpmcgone@uop.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:13:06 -0500
I think you can make a nice fruit/floral apple wine from a mix including
Jonathan, Cortland and 'Mac-family' (Empire, McIntosh, Paula Red, etc.)
apples. I like Ida Red to bring up acidity.
I almost hate to say it, but don't necessarily shun Red Delicious. It gives
a fruity base to build on - even if it isn't particularly tart, nor high
gravity, nor flavorful.
I haven't tried Romes - but they can develop a nice 'rose' perfume if they
get enough sun.
As for new apples - Sweet 16 is nice. The only other one that sticks in my
memory is Cameo - which I think looks pretty - but tastes like a Red Del, or
even blander.
You'll end up with a cider with much more of a wine character. If I
understand some of my recent reading, it would be more like a 19th Cen.
German cider - but more fruity - than the British or French traditions.
------------------------------
Subject: Freezing yeast
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:33:17 +0100
David Martin asked:
> I have been doing some reading about yeast culturing. Does anyone in the
> list have any experience with keeping yeast cultures? Especially long term
> storage of frozen yeast?
>
I am not a yeast man but I think deep-freezing is more difficult than it
sounds. You can't just shove the yeast into the freezer and forget about
it - most likely the cells will just rupture as the ice crystals form.
You have to have some sort of 'cryoprotectant' which is usually a glycol
solution of some sort. There is a URL which seems to cover this aspect
for home use at http://home.highertech.net/~cdp/freezeyeast.htm
Liquid or slope cultures should stay in good condition for many months
in the fridge if only accessed with a sterile loop and not allowed to
dry out. The classic way to keep
them forever is to carefully sub-culture them onto a new storage agar
every six months or so (?) - this is what everyone in the fermentation
business did until very recent years when dried yeasts became
commonplace. That too demands some care to avoid infection. I think
all the yeast culture collections keep their stock freeze-dried but that
is hardly practicable at home!
Most commercial (and many amateur) cidermakers now use dried wine yeasts
which keep for years in an airtight pack in the fridge - so the old ways
have been virtually forgotten!
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #979, 2 July 2002
From: applehilorchard@webtv.net (Lee Elliott)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:55:37 -0500 (CDT)
Some of the good commercial apples I've used that are good for cider are
Jonagold, suncrisp, pink lady, idared, jonathan, while some lite on acid
and flavor that I don't think are so good are red delicious, honeycrisp,
cameo, gold del, the best cider we have made that won some awards was
made with spitzenberg, suncrisp, furtune and maigold.
------------------------------
Subject: Concentrating apple cider
From: applehilorchard@webtv.net (Lee Elliott)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:03:20 -0500 (CDT)
I've really picked up flavor in cider by freezing cider, thawing it out
and siphon out the top one fourth, then blend and ferment. Gets rid of
a lot of water, Have others used this technique and what are the
results?
------------------------------
Subject: White Oak Cider announces Kingston Black release
From: morgan <morgan@redandblackcafe.org>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 18:03:33 -0700
Hi all,
Great news!
I was just talking to Alan Foster from White Oak Cider. His Kingston Black
Cider will be released on September 15th. He expects to have 600 750ml
bottles.
For those who don't know, Kingston Black is the only perfect cider apple.
White Oak's Kingston Black is simply as good as cider gets anywhere.
I talked him into offering cider-digest readers first shot at the K.B.
So Alan is taking pre-orders from y'all!
Or at least those of you in CA, CO, ID, IL, Iowa, MN, MO, NM, OR, WA, WV and
WI. In those states you can order 2 750ml bottles for a mere $35 (includes
shipping).
You can call Alan at 503.538.0349 or e-mail whiteoakcider@aol.com to arrange
shipment or better yet, just mail a check for $35 to:
White Oak Cider
18450 NE Ribbon Ridge Rd.
Newberg, OR 97132
Folks in other states will be able to pre-order the Kingston Black through
Liquid Solutions (www.liquidsolutions.ws), e-mail them at:
Matt_Maples@liquidsolutions.ws
to order.
Ordering through Liquid Solutions might also have a different pricing, etc.
LS is a great bottle store and has a number of local and French ciders,
hundreds of beers and lots of meads (Polish mead!?!) as well.
Other White Oak news:
A new product will be released later in the year, a pommeau. Pommeau is a
french style cider with calvados (cider brandy) added to bring it to 18%.
Distilling of Alan's cider was done by the world famous Clear Creek
distillery.
White Oak was also named to the Slow Foods Movement's (www.slowfoods.com)
"Ark of Taste". The ark is awarded to "endangered" heritage gourmet foods.
Only 26 US food products have been named to the Ark.
Cheers!
Morgan Miller
former editor of Cider Space Web Site
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #979, 2 July 2002
From: peter goddard <p.goddard@latrobe.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:36:54 +1000
Drew Henry made an excellent Pink Lady cider a year
or two ago. It was, I think, straight Pinks. Lots
of flavour, though not heavy on tannin.
Peter.
Scott Smith wrote:
>
> . . . They also have a bunch of the "new"
> apples which I've not seen classified as good (or bad) for cider:
> Suncrisp, Pink Lady, Cameo, Honeycrisp, Holiday, Fortune. Are any of
> these good cider apples?
>
------------------------------
Subject: RE:Mainstream US apples for cider-making?
From: Rocco Rizzo <rrizzo@hvc.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 07:30:19 -0400
Scott Smith wrote:
>Since my cider orchard is now a bunch of non-producing runts, I am going
>to pick some apples locally at the U-pick places this fall to make
>cider... They do have the following which I have heard associated
>with hard cider making: Jonagold, Stayman, Mutsu/Crispin, Ida Red,
>Empire, Rome, Cortland, Jonathan, Summer Rambo. Are any of these
>particularly good, or bad? The first three seem to have the best
>reputation from what I've heard. Are any of these good cider apples?
>Scott
Though I have very little expertise in this, (I brew mead, especially cyser
(mead made with apple juice instead of water)) I have had good luck with
Ida Reds, and Empires. I also use Northern Spys. I made some hard cider
last year with these varieties, and the cider turned out fine. The cyser
was even yummier!
I was able to obtain them here in the Hudson Valley. They were not sprayed,
and were free! So I may be biased, but for the price, they were
fine. Just my two cents.
It seems that some of the orchards here are not doing too well. This
spring, there was a late frost that killed a lot of the flowers on the
trees, so this year I will probably have to buy apples for the first time
in several years, and I will be searching high and low for low or no spray
apples.
Rocco Rizzo "The PC Wizard"
email: rocriz@hvc.rr.com
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."
------------------------------
Subject: Re:Cider Digest #979, 2 July 2002
From: fagandr@juno.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:32:28 GMT
It seems to me that Scott has a good possibility of making a nice blend of
juices, given the apples available on his list. When I was producing
Goldfinch cider (long may it be remembered) I used pretty much the blend
Scott has proposed, except I didn't use any Summer apples as I didn't press
until late October. The percentages I used, approximately, were 25%
MacIntosh, 25% Jonathans, 25% Romes and a melange of Empires and Golden
Delicious and Ida Reds, depending on availability. I found the essential
apples were the Jonathans, for sufficient acidity, and the Romes for bouquet
(sp?). I aimed for a ph of about 3.4, if I could get it, so I adjusted
Jonathans up or down as needed.
Hope this helps, Dan Fagan
------------------------------
Subject: My new place...finally an orchard
From: Terence Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:42:47 -0400
Hello all:
My wife and I are in the process of finally buying our first home located
in Calais, VT, eight miles north of our capital, Montpelier. We will have
ten acres to play with, mostly wooded but with a clearing below the house
of about one acre. I will be clearing more of the area as time goes
by. Finally, after caring for other's trees for so many years, I can plant
my own (home) orchard. I have extensive experience with orchard management
both commercial (fifty and ten acre farms) and for research, as I manage
ten acres of plantings for the University of Vermont Apple
Program. Finally I can get out of the McIntosh and other eating apple game
and put in some cider varieties, my true love. I have been making cider as
long as I have been involved with apples, so know what I'm looking
for. What I need now is some advice regarding how some varieties will do
in this zone 4 climate.
The site: sloping land, southeast exposure, well-protected by softwood
forest. Planting will be at about 1300 feet. No doubt acidic soils which I
will be liming this summer/fall.
The orchard: I am looking at planting the following varieties:
Ashmead's Kernel, Bedan, Binet Rouge, Black Oxford, Blue Pearmain, Brown
Snout, Brown's Apple, Calville Blanc, Chenango, Chisel Jersey, Dabinette,
Duchess, Egremont Russett, Ellis Bitter, Erwin Bauer, Spitzenburg,
Foxwhelp, Golden Russett, Kingston Black, Lady, Michelin, Non-Pariel,
Reinette Simerenko, Reinette Zabergau, Roxbury Russett, St. Edmunds
Russett, Stembridge Cluster, Sweet 16, Tremlett's Bitter, Wickson, and
Yarlington Mill.
All trees will be on semi-dwarfing rootstock, M7 or CG30. Obviously I have
included some eating fruit in here, but ones that I do not have at the
research orchard. I will most likely weed out a few of these, and am
looking for advice on which to avoid in a zone 4 location.
Any advice?
Thanks,
TerryB
=================================================================
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service
93 Stowe St
Waterbury, VT 05676
(802)244-0953
madshaw@innevi.com
The views represented are mine and mine only...
------------------------------
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] My new place...finally an orchard
From: Doug Woodard <dwoodard@npiec.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:13:04 -0400 (EDT)
Dear Terence:
I read a report from Mr. Hoskins of Newport, Vermont well back in the
19th century which stated that he had found Black Oxford to be
considerably less winter-hardy than Northern Spy, and that it did not
survive his climate. I believe his local conditions were fairly severe.
Robert Notschke mentioned in his Southmeadow Fruit Gardens catalogue of
1968(?) that he did not get best eating quality from Calville Blanc
d'Hiver every year at Detroit, but only in the warmer and sunnier
seasons. I haven't heard anything about its cold-hardiness but I would
be suspicious.
Blue Pearmain is reputed a cold-climate apple.
Some years ago I spoke with a grower in the Meaford-Collingwood area
on the south shore of Georgian Bay in Ontario. He had grown Erwin Bauer
successfully but could not sell them for the fresh market. Winter
conditions are not very severe there though; it is one of the classic
Ontario Spy growing areas.
I understand that the Agriculture Canada research station at St. Jean and
Frelighsburg in Quebec has had some of the classic English and French
cider apples for many years; you could probably get information from them.
I would guess that Bill MacKently of St. Lawrence Nurseries in Potsdam New
York ( a cold spot, worse than Ottawa) may have some knowledge of some of
your proposed cultivars.
Ken Taylor of Windmill Point Orchard and Nursery at Notre Dame Ile Perrot
near Montreal has grown some of the English and French cider apples.
he has about the most severe conditions in the Montreal area.
If you have not had favourable experience of M7 in test winters and for
some time in your area I would be cautious about it. It is not regarded as
really suitable for the colder commercial apple-growing areas in Ontario.
If your experience has been favourable, consider whether you may have more
open winters in the future with climate change.
Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Terence Bradshaw wrote:
> Hello all:
> My wife and I are in the process of finally buying our first home located
> in Calais, VT, eight miles north of our capital, Montpelier. We will have
> ten acres to play with, mostly wooded but with a clearing below the house
> of about one acre. I will be clearing more of the area as time goes
> by. Finally, after caring for other's trees for so many years, I can plant
> my own (home) orchard. I have extensive experience with orchard management
> both commercial (fifty and ten acre farms) and for research, as I manage
> ten acres of plantings for the University of Vermont Apple
> Program. Finally I can get out of the McIntosh and other eating apple game
> and put in some cider varieties, my true love. I have been making cider as
> long as I have been involved with apples, so know what I'm looking
> for. What I need now is some advice regarding how some varieties will do
> in this zone 4 climate.
> The site: sloping land, southeast exposure, well-protected by softwood
> forest. Planting will be at about 1300 feet. No doubt acidic soils which I
> will be liming this summer/fall.
> The orchard: I am looking at planting the following varieties:
> Ashmead's Kernel, Bedan, Binet Rouge, Black Oxford, Blue Pearmain, Brown
> Snout, Brown's Apple, Calville Blanc, Chenango, Chisel Jersey, Dabinette,
> Duchess, Egremont Russett, Ellis Bitter, Erwin Bauer, Spitzenburg,
> Foxwhelp, Golden Russett, Kingston Black, Lady, Michelin, Non-Pariel,
> Reinette Simerenko, Reinette Zabergau, Roxbury Russett, St. Edmunds
> Russett, Stembridge Cluster, Sweet 16, Tremlett's Bitter, Wickson, and
> Yarlington Mill.
> All trees will be on semi-dwarfing rootstock, M7 or CG30. Obviously I have
> included some eating fruit in here, but ones that I do not have at the
> research orchard. I will most likely weed out a few of these, and am
> looking for advice on which to avoid in a zone 4 location.
>
> Any advice?
>
> Thanks,
>
> TerryB
> =================================================================
> Terence Bradshaw
> Pomona Tree Fruit Service
> 93 Stowe St
> Waterbury, VT 05676
> (802)244-0953
> madshaw@innevi.com
>
> The views represented are mine and mine only...
>
------------------------------
Subject: Mainstream apples for cider
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Martin=20Par=E9?= <vitiqc@yahoo.ca>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 06:04:03 +0200 (CEST)
Hi,
I used Empire a few times with interesting results
for both hard cider and "mistelle" (aperitive made
from apple must and alcohol), usually blended with
some Spartan and Golden Russet (Russet being usually
10-20 % of the mix).
Hope this helps,
Martin, Eatern Townships, Quebec, Canada
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #980
*************************
