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Cider Digest #0954
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: cider-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: cider@talisman.com
To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #954, 5 March 2002
Cider Digest #954 5 March 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Commercial tribulations (Andrew Lea)
Acids in crab apples (Andrew Lea)
Perry Pears at National Clonal Germplasm Repository ("Awdey, Gary")
Opinions about cider presses ("Alex Paredez")
re: Cider Space (Cider Digest)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Commercial tribulations
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 09:38:00 +0000
Tim Bray asked:
> There used to be a page that discussed the various tribulations of going
> into commercial production. Anyone know if that is still accessible
> somewhere?
>
> Did anyone ever get a copy of the business plan from Black & Fagan? I
> wrote to Black but got an odd reply saying that his wife told him not to
> waste any more time on it...
For what it's worth, Brian Black gave me permission to include his
'valediction' from this Digest on my website when his business closed.
Is that what you mean? If so, the link is at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/bandf.htm
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Acids in crab apples
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 10:49:01 +0000
Charles wrote:
> I'm not sure about putting crabapple wine through a malo-lactic
> fermentation. I've done some HPLC on blends with Dolgo and measured
> significant amounts of ascorbic acid. I don't recall what the citric acid
> level was. Those acids can make off notes if worked on by ML bacteria.
It is true that citrate can give off flavours (acetoin / diacetyl) if
acted upon by ML bacteria. That's why it's a problem in perry where
citrate is higher than in cider. But I never heard of
off-flavours from ascorbate, although excess added ascorbate will
certainly increase the sulphite-binding power of a cider by increasing
the pyruvate levels for reasons unknown. The pyruvate could then get
metabolised to off-flavours by ML bacteria - interesting!! Charles do
you have any more info on this one?
> I don't know if anyone has studied the types of acids in crab apples -
> especially broken down by variety.
I don't know either. But in all the literature I ever saw on apples,
the major is always malic (80%), followed by quinic (20%). Citric is
very small and ascorbic is significant in raw apples but mostly
destroyed by oxidatiion during milling and pressing (unless you do it
under nitrogen!). I see no reason why crab apples should differ from
regular - unless they are a different species of Malus other than pumila
(as some crabs are). So a survey might be interesting but I wouldn't
hold your breath!
The major problem with MLF in very acid ciders is that it just don't
go! The bacteria do not like a low pH and so ironically the ciders that
would most profit by MLF are those in which it's least likely to happen!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford UK
------------------------------
Subject: Perry Pears at National Clonal Germplasm Repository
From: "Awdey, Gary" <gary.awdey@bethsteel.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 16:32:59 -0500
As of last year the fifteen perry pears in the Repository collection were
those listed below (with a sixteenth still in quarantine):
LOCAL PLANT NAME
----------------------------------
33.001 Barland
35.001 Barnet
95.001 Blakeney Red
103.001 Brandy
121.001 Butt
1519.002 Gelbmostler
246.001 Gin
276.001 Hendre Huffcap
416.002 Normannischen Ciderbirne
474.001 Red Pear
1670.001 Romania Perry Pear
567.001 Taynton Squash
569.001 Thorn
2029.001 Winnals Longdon
625.001 Yellow Huffcap
Information on these varieties is available on the Repository website, but a
much better description of most is available in Luckwill & Pollard's Perry
Pears, hopefully still available for =A325.00 (about $35 US) from Long Ashton
(contact Mrs. Christine Cooke for information: christine.cooke@bbsrc.ac.uk).
For those in the US who want perry pear trees but don't want to make
accession requests or do the grafting themselves, I know of three likely
sources. All do custom grafting.
1. Cider Hill Nursery
Lee and Mary Elliott
1852 Woodson Rd.
Winchester, IL 62695
217-882-2047
(Has been offering grafted perry pears the longest but has typically shown
limited availabity if you don't order custom grafts in advance. Lee has
posted what's available at the end of the season in past issues of the Cider
Digest.)
2. Cummins Nursery (Steve Cummins just budded all 15 last Summer at this NY
Fingerlakes region nursery; Check for limited availability for 2003);
www.cumminsnursery.com
As far as I know, Cider Hill and Cummins can easily graft any pear available
for accession from the NCGR at Corvallis or apple from the Genetic Resources
Unit(GRU) at Geneva. Please keep in mind that both the NCGR and GRU were
set up primarily to support breeding research. Since both can be
overwhelmed with accession requests at times, they appreciate it greatly if
you first look for whatever you need at commerical nurseries or look for
scions through amateur groups such as NAFEX. If it's unavailable, they're
glad to help you. I'm not sure what groups exist in other countries, but it
would nice to have a cider/perry scion trading website in the US.
3. Big Horse Creek Farm (Last I heard Ron Joyner also planned to graft all
15 NCGR perry pears this Winter as whips at this North Carolina nursery;
Check for limited availability for 2003); www.bighorsecreekfarm.com
Cummins Nursery and Big Horse Creek Farm are both worth a close look for
cider apple trees too.
Gary Awdey
Eden, NY
------------------------------
Subject: Opinions about cider presses
From: "Alex Paredez" <aparedez@stanford.edu>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:05:19 -0800
Hello All,
A big part of the draw (at least for me) in home brewing, winemaking, etc
is the do it yourself part and this includes equipment. I know there are
some nice looking presses that can be bought already assembled, but I would
like to make a press that would be suitable for both wine and apples. Of
course I think I could save some money by doing it myself as well. I have a
small basket press now, and I really dislike the effort it takes to turn the
screw, so I am leaning towards some kind of basket press with a hydraulic
jack, but am concerned about hydraulic leaks and whether or not too much
pressure would be applied. I have seen some plans on the internet for screw
presses with square baskets
(http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/Vineyard/1762/pressplans.html), but I
worry about how strong it would be so it might be best to buy a basket from
one of the companies making presses and then just build a frame and all of
the other parts. One of my friends works as a welder and my grandfather has
a pretty decent woodshop, so I could go wood or metal. I do not know what
would cost more, a hardwood frame or a metal one, but I think I could get
some scrap metal free or very cheap and I would have to buy the hardwood.
So I am thinking about making a metal frame with I beams that supports a
wood collection platform. It seems to me that any frame that is strong
enough will work as long as the juice does not contact it. So the big
questions are 1) Opinions about square vs. round pressing basket? 2)
Hydraulic vs. Screw type mechanism for pressure? 3) How much pressure does
a screw type press generate and what would be the appropriate size hydraulic
jack? 4) Are there any features I should try and include or any pitfalls I
should avoid.
Thanks For any input,
- -Alex
Alex Paredez Address: Somerville Lab
Graduate Student Carnegie Institution of Washington
Stanford Biological Sciences 260 Panama Street
e-mail: aparedez@stanford.edu Stanford, CA 94305
Phone: (650) 325-1521 ext. 433
FAX: (650) 325-6857
------------------------------
Subject: re: Cider Space
From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:16:29 -0700 (MST)
Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org> wrote:
> What ever happened to Cider Space? A couple of years ago I heard it was
> "shortly" going to move to a new URL, but never have found it again.
I had intended to take it over and make it part of our web pages. However,
the old Cider Space pages had more Mac dependencies than I could sort out
in a reasonable time. Health problems added to the delay, to the extent
that the information on the pages got stale. Gillian Grafton's pages,
which were a mainstay of the noncommercial part of Cider Space, disappeared.
Meanwhile, the potential second-level domain names for ciderspace under
.com/.org/.net appear to have been "squatted"--that's an educated guess,
not an assertion, mind you. There are potential trademark issues with the
name, and even if Morgan and Cezanne had rights to the name by first use,
the intervening years of non-use would be a problem. So even if Cider
Space could "come back" it would have to be under a different name.
But enough of the sad violin music.
Andrew Lea's web pages are an excellent resource on cider making; I think
they cover that facet of the old Cider Space info as well as we can ask.
One big part of what's missing from "cider on the web" is commercial
information. I'm going to begin working on that aspect by adding a web
page for information on sources for cider apple trees as soon as possible
(in order that it be of at least some potential use this year for the
northern hemisphere). So I'll be looking for anyone who can sell and ship
scion wood, new grafts, or young trees, and I'll set up either summaries
with contact information here (under www.talisman.com/cider) or links to
their web pages if they have them. Contact me if you're interested; I'll
send another note when it's ready to go.
I want to generate a new list of commercial cider-makers, analogous to
what Cider Space had, with the usual information like location, sales,
whether they ship, etc. That's a little bit down the road. I do want to
limit it to "real cider" makers...places that make fermented apple juice,
not factories that make fermented sugar-water with a little bit of apple
flavor. That had become a bit of a problem with the original Cider Space;
they regretted not having set stricter guidelines at the outset.
Now, Tim (and anyone else who was wondering), is that way more blather than
you expected or wanted?
- ---
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #954
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