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Cider Digest #0970
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #970, 15 May 2002
Cider Digest #970 15 May 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #969, 11 May 2002 (Bill Rhyne)
Cider Regs ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Re: Cider Digest #969, 11 May 2002 (Tim Bray)
("Jeffrey")
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #969, 11 May 2002
From: Bill Rhyne <theo9us@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:33:05 -0700 (PDT)
RE: gushing bottles of Ace cider
Dick,
Ace cider is made at near sea level in California and
you are in Boulder, Colo. --I think-- and and so you
are over 5000 feet above sea level so the gas will
escape more easily. Try chilling it down to 34 degrees
F and see if that slows the escape of gas. I noticed
that our cider is a little more sparkling when we pour
at Lake Tahoe events. If that doesn't affect the
bubbles, then it is a bad batch I guess.
As for Tim Bray's questions about ATF and FDA issues.
Both agencies have certain juridictions--BATF wants
tax money and controls the production regulations in
that the cider is made under an 02 winery license.
That is why we work out of Ravenswood Winery in
Sonoma. Eventually, we may get our own license. If the
apples are grown by the cider maker on his farm and he
has not added anything and if the fermentation is a
natural consequence of juicing, then a farmer may be
excluded from these regulations but they suggest that
you may have problems selling it because of poor
taste. But if you can pull it off, then you can
operate under the farmer guidelines.
As for label approval, the BATF approves labels for
beverages over 7 % and the FDA has governance for
beverage labels under 7%. They don't approve labels or
inspect labels. If there is a complaint about your
label, then they will call you. They have a booklet
that describes how to design an label that meets their
requirements. As far as inspection of your production
plant, they don't do that-- the BATF, State, and
county or city officials do that.
In California, there is another agency that does
inspect labels and that is the recycling department.
You need to submit your label to them for cider as
they classify it as a soft drink since there is apple
juice in apple cider and it is under 7%---huh? Don't
ask me to explain their thinking as they are only
interested in the idea that you state the the bottle
is recycleable and that the label says "CA CASH
REFUND" on it in 1/8" lettering. Then you have to
collect $.06/bottle to send back to the state and
other stuff. That is why some cider makers are putting
all of that stuff--nutritional data, recycling data,
etc. The regulations can be hairy for a commercial
operation.
I hope that this is consistent with other people's
experiences as this is what I learned when I did the
business plan for Rhyne Cyder.
Bill Rhyne
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Regs
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 22:39:47 -0700
The following is a note from Marjory Ruhf at the Treasury Department from
several years ago.
"You do need to register as a bonded winery (Internal Revenue Code
requirement for all wine over 1/2% alcohol by volume), and pay occupational
and gallonage tax. However, if you are making and selling nothing but wine
under 7% alcohol by volume, you do not need to get a Wine Producer's and
Blender's Basic Permit under the FAA Act. It is very unusual for a producer
to make nothing but wine under 7% alcohol, and we all need to readjust our
thinking."
I apologize for the confusion. I still have trouble with the idea of cider
being wine under one of our laws, but not the other, and I have been
thinking and writing about cider for over a year! I would be happy to talk
to the inspector or the State officials about this."
Ms.Ruhf wrote the 1998 revisions to Title 27 regarding cider.
The way we interpreted this was that if you want to commercially produce
cider, register as a bonded winery with BATF. This takes a little effort,
and requires an a annual bond, the payment of a annual occupational tax plus
a tax on each gallon sold from bond. Your labeling(FAA)is controlled by the
FDA not Treasury. In Washington State, our control agency sees it this way.
Yes, there is a way of producing federally tax free cider, this is Sec.
5042. This might work if you only sold from your farmstead store. We find
that some retailers require us to provide our Bonded Winery number when we
sell to them.
A caveat, I am not a lawyer, do not really understand the nuances of Federal
Law. We just try to work along with it as well as state law. This is the
time honored "Render unto Caesar.."
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #969, 11 May 2002
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 18:24:00 -0700
>So if you flipped the 3.9g CO2/L limit for still wine tax rates over on its
>head, you would get a sugar addition at bottling of around 7g/L, or the
>equivalent of that in residual sugar, or freedom to use a CO2 pressure
>bottle filler up to about 20psig without worry.
>
>The pressure should change by about .4 psi per 'C.
>
>Does that make any sense?
Yes! Thank you very much, that is exactly the sort of information I was
looking for. I presume those figures are for pure water, not wine, but the
solubility difference caused by 6.5% alcohol shouldn't be too severe.
The pressure equivalent is especially helpful, because I should be able to
make a gauge adapter to check the pressure after degorgement. I suspect I
will be under 20 psi, which would be good.
Thanks!
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject:
From: "Jeffrey" <jeffrey@acecider.com>
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 13:03:56 -0700
We have just read David Dunn's article about our Ace ciders and wish to
assure your members that we have very stringent quality control
standards at the California Cider Company and sell in excess of 150,000
cases across the U.S. annually.We do not pasteurize our ciders and use
almost 100 per cent juice and the best ingredients that are available.
Each bottling and kegging undergoes stringent microbiological analysis
in our in-house laboratory.We moved facilities twice last year and did
unfortunately experience some bottle refermentation last summer. This
was from a malolactic bacteria. We recalled this product and had to
destroy it.We operate through 50 wholesalers, who unfortunately do not
always rotate product properly or may not have replaced all the cider
from all retailers shelves or storage rooms.We strongly believe that our
Ace Ciders are some of the best made in North America.We invite your
readers to come and taste all our brands at our Ace-in-the-Hole cider
pub in Sebastopol.We have just made a very European style cider from
local organic apples, which we serve on tap.
Your's sincerely,
Jeffrey House.
President
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End of Cider Digest #970
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