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Cider Digest #1013
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1013, 29 December 2002
Cider Digest #1013 29 December 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
technical discussions (Dick Dunn)
Subject: Tannin content (Terry Maloney)
re: technicality (Bob and Winnie)
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Subject: technical discussions
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:00:59 -0700 (MST)
In CD 1012, Philip Sugarman <PSugarman@standrew.co.uk> wrote:
> Dick
>
> Cider digest is rapidly becoming too technical for me - it is a while since
> I contributed. Are all your contributors commercial producers?
Philip - Why is the comment directed at me?
I think there are only a few commercial producers on the Digest. We can't
really tell unless they say in a posting that they are. Moreover, they
don't contribute very often, unless you count Andrew Lea who is technically
now a "small-scale commercial" producer!
As to the technical content: Where would such discussions happen, if not
here? The Cider Digest is what we collectively choose to make of it.
There's not much "traffic" on the digest; it's not as if casual discussions
are being drowned out. I think it comes down to ignoring the material that
doesn't interest you, refuting those opinions you find unreasonable, and
starting discussions on topics which do interest you. If the Cider Digest
isn't going the direction YOU would like, then YOU are the one who can
change that.
There's a wide variety of interest and ability here. So, sure, some of the
discussions about processing are uninteresting to most readers. Some of
the discussions about orchard work are overwhelmingly pointless to most of
the readers, because they don't have room for trees, nor a mill-and-press.
But the discussions go on anyway, and maybe occasionally pique the interest
of a casual cider-maker to start exploring more.
All that said, I think we should be clear that keeving is an esoteric
matter, even for serious cider-makers. Most of us will never have the
apples and the conditions to attempt it...and even if we did, most of us
would also not have a reason to do so!
> I make "Eastern" or Kentish style cider from mixed cookers and eaters, with
> usually nothing else at all...
That's fine, and ... considering that the bulk of the CD subscribers are
probably Americans with no access to cider apples ... it is probably more-
or-less the style that almost all of the readers make!
> ...I only
> rack it off once a few days before bottling, but perhaps to get more
> residual sweetness I should rack off earlier. However its simple to sweeten
> the cider with sugar or honey to taste once poured. I have never had a
> bottle "go off" but sometimes they explode in summer.
But then, doesn't that come right back to a discussion of "technique",
namely how to maintain residual sweetness without overcarbonation? Forget
keeving, which is again really an esoteric and isolated technique, but why
not pursue the more general question? I'd think you would want to avoid
exploding bottles at all costs! Anyone who's making fermented beverages of
any sort (I've been round this same matter with beer and mead as well as
cider) should realize that an exploding bottle can maim a person...and so
for that reason if no other, we pursue understanding and techniques.
[etc]
> Am I missing something? Why is everybody so technical? Relax - Merry
> Christmas!
Perhaps that came across differently than you intended, but I bristle a bit
at the suggestion that we need to "relax" just because we're asking and
trying to answer a lot of questions or trying to get "technical". To me,
curiosity and learning are fun. Asking questions, experimenting, trying to
find a hypothesis for why something works, sifting through possibilities...
they're all games. If you're making good cider and you're content with it,
that's fine for you. I'm trying to do that, but I'm also curious, and I
don't think my curiosity is out-of-place.
Dick
------------------------------
Subject: Subject: Tannin content
From: Terry Maloney <terry@westcountycider.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 19:11:53 -0500
We asked a wine lab (Vinquiry, Healdsburg, CA) to measure tannins in
some of our ciders '93 & '94. What they actually measured were Total
Phenols, which seem to have something to do with tannins. Some of the
results:
In '93
Baldwin 490 ppm Total Phenols
Macintosh 334 ppm
Dabinett 1300 ppm
Tremlett's Bitter (Geneva) 1116 ppm
In '94
Baldwin (juice) 356 ppm
For comparison, in that lab, Merlot was running 2200-3000 ppm Total
Phenols, and Zin about the same.
I think its interesting, but its important to keep in mind, as Philip
Sugarman pointed out in the last digest (Cider Digest #1012), taste is
the best guide to making good cider.
Terry Maloney
West County Cider
------------------------------
Subject: re: technicality
From: Bob and Winnie <natvwine@cut.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 23:31:05 -0700
When I read Philip's post I decided that I should respond.
Some time ago, I innocently voiced my opinion about the addition of
chemicals to the product that we all are most interested in and was
dissmised as a valid contributor to the list by another subscriber.
I have since followed the digest with diminishing interest and most
recently was amused by the interest of some of us in the west in the
process of keeving, the revelation of insistence by those who actually
practice this mysterious form of fermentation that absolutely no
sulfites be used and the subsequent lack of posts about this
(apparently!) most important subject.
I cannot help but wonder if the stated mission of the digest to discuss
issues concerning cider production has been "drowned out" by those with
more technical interests.
I would like to say to Philip that I am a commercial producer and
although I own a couple of hydrometer's (required by the BATF), six
different licenses and am bonded with the State of Utah and the U.S.
federal gov. for over $750,000 we only rack once or twice, don't
filter, and also trust in our taste buds for guidance in formulation of
the final product.
I would like to see the digest entertain more content with an eye toward
what is in the mouth vs. what is in the books.
Bob Sorenson, Native Wines
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1013
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