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Cider Digest #0961
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #961, 6 April 2002
Cider Digest #961 6 April 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Acreage = worth it? ("Mark Ellis")
Re: apple juice concentrate ("T. J. Higgins")
The Warcollier Book ("John L. Emmett")
French Cidre Apple Collectors? ("McGonegal, Charles")
Midwest Perry Growers? ("McGonegal, Charles")
Why does CAMRA like diluted cider? (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Acreage = worth it?
From: "Mark Ellis" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:05:52 +1000
G'day All,
Just wanted to hear from some of you commercial types ( or trying to be) out
there to see, in a ball park kind of fashion, how many trees would you need to
be harvesting from to make a half decent living from making and selling cider.
Just the tree side mind, as I have already amassed a quantity of production
notes, licensing etc
I am having a bit of a look at artisan cider production, and trying to
ascertain sustainability. I am in Aussie land (Victoria) and I will speak to
some of
the local boys, but am interested in what all you "worldly" cidermakers consider
a worthwhile throughput.
Cheers
Mark E. in Oz
------------------------------
Subject: Re: apple juice concentrate
From: "T. J. Higgins" <tjhiggin@mail.hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:41:44 -0600 (CST)
Jim Fitch wrote:
> Greetings from Florida, (we don't grow apples).
> Being a cider newbie and not having access to fresh juice I'm wondering
> if I can substitute apple concentrate reconstituted? My local super
> market carries one with just apple juice, malic acid and acetic acid (
> vitamin C ) and another brand with apple juice, water, and ascorbic
> acid. Will either of those acids hamper fermentation? Or is there
> another way to go?
Those concentrates should work OK. The acids are needed by the yeast.
You might even want to add some yeast nutrient. Many if not all
homebrewing & winemaking shops also sell apple concentrate, which is
specifically formulated for fermentation. "Specifically formulated"
means that a blend of acids is added to the base. If your local
homebrew/winemaking shop can't help, you can get it from
www.grapeandgranary.com or www.ebrew.com.
T.J. Higgins
Huntsville, AL
------------------------------
Subject: The Warcollier Book
From: "John L. Emmett" <jlemmett@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 16:56:36 -0800
As several of you know, I borrowed a copy of the book
"The Principles and Practice of Cider-Making by Vernon L.S. Charley
B.Sc, Ph.D (late of University of Bristol Agricultural and Horticultural
Research Station, Long Ashton), assisted by Pamela M. Mumford.
"[A translation of the third and last edition (1928) of La Cidrerie by
Professor G. Warcollier, late Director of the Pomological Research Station,
Caen. Published in the Encyclopedie Agricole series by J-B Bailliere et
Fils, Paris].
from the South Dakota State University library and made a master xerox copy.
I then made three double sided copies and had Kinko's bind them with a paper
cover like a paperback book. The reason for three was that I wanted one and
wanted it bound and the minimum Kinko's would do with that kind of binding
was three. I offered the others for sale on cider digest for $35 each (my
cost) and sold them some time ago. About two months ago a very good friend,
who had done many favors in the past for me, was just desperate to have a
copy like mine. So still having the master, I made three more copies. Thus
I am stuck with two and the costs. If anyone wants them they are $35 ea.
If you just want to read it rather than own it, most Interlibrary loan
departments will track it down for you and borrow it. If you don't want it
bound, you can make a copy yourself and save some money. In the really off
chance that there are a lot of you out there that really want a copy, I
could make a dozen or so and they would cost less. I am not really enthused
about making books by hand, but I know how important books are to me so if
any of you are really desperate let me know. I guess I could spend a day
slaving over a hot xerox machine.
- --
John L. Emmett
22721 NE 123rd Circle
Brush Prairie, WA 98606
Phone: 360-260-5277
Fax:360-260-5557
Email: jlemmett@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Subject: French Cidre Apple Collectors?
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <cpmcgone@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:04:29 -0600
I'm once again on the prowl for apple varieties. I'm looking for some
specific French cidre varieties that aren't in either the Geneva Germplasm
Repository, nor in some of the big US private collections (Like Nick
Botner's). They are mostly from Brittany and Normandy, and are referred to
in literature from those areas and seem to be propagated but clubs in France
- - but aren't even in the French or British national fruit collections - or
at least they don't seem to be.
Any how, I'm looking for:
Doux Eveque, Frequin Gris, Havardais, Jumelle, Coeur D'Ane, Pictas, Petit
Doux, Monte Le Mont,
and _any_ of the Chevalier apples - but especially Chevalier Jaune and
Toussaint Chevalier.
(who can resist an apple named 'All Saint's Day Knight'?)
Thanks.
Charles McGonegal
cpmgone@aelleptreow.com
------------------------------
Subject: Midwest Perry Growers?
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <cpmcgone@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:06:46 -0600
Are there any perry pear growers in southern Wisconsin, northern Illinois,
or southern Michigan who would be willing to sell/trade a few bushels this
fall?
Charles McGonegal
cpmcgone@aeppeltreow.com
------------------------------
Subject: Why does CAMRA like diluted cider?
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:23:53 -0700 (MST)
Some years ago ('94 or '96) I stumbled across a British CAMRA (CAMpaign for
Real Ale) flyer on cider--talking about what it is (the industrial swill)
and what it should be (tradition). There was one part of it that felt VERY
wrong at the time. I grumbled about it at the time but I had mostly for-
gotten. I recently had a look at their web site and found the same strange
attitude still there.
Under the CAMRA page on "Cider & Perry" they explain, early on:
"What is good Cider?
Basically good cider is NATURAL cider - the fermented juice of the apple,
with nothing added and nothing taken away..."
That is about as straight and to-the-point as you can make it. It's fine.
BUT later, talking about the process, they tell us:
...
"Virtually all (with the exception of some made by national producers)
ciders ferment for the full period and are extremely dry, Bulmers No. 7
is an example. Sugar is added at fermentation, enabling the cider to
reach around 14% alcohol by volume, and then water is added to dilute
it down to a suitable strength...
[a note on blending deleted]
...Truly traditional cider making stops here and the cider is ready to
serve, usually in its cloudy form..."
What happened?!? Where was the principle "nothing added, nothing taken away"
abandoned, and why? What's with the sugar and the dilution?
Look at what's REALLY going on in the example: Take apple juice, which by
itself would have enough sugar to ferment in the range of maybe 6% up to
approaching 9%. Let's say, to make the numbers easy, that it could reach
7% on its own. That would be a nice juice to work with. But now we add
enough sugar to make it ferment to 14% alcohol--*twice* the potential of the
juice by itself, so HALF of the alcohol is produced by bulk sugar rather
than by the apple juice. Then it's diluted back to "a suitable strength"--
which we might presume to be around 7% (what would have been a pleasant
cider from the original juice). You've got a result which is half cider
and half fermented sugar-water!! Need I point out that fermented sugar-
water does NOT taste like cider? Matter of fact, it doesn't taste like
much of anything, except that it will get you drunk...which is presumably
the intention of the commercial cider-maker.
Mind you, I'm not surprised that industrial cider producers would do such a
thing! If five gallons of juice, half a gallon of industrial sugar syrup,
and 4.5 gallons of water, will give you ten gallons of "cider", you've just
cut your raw-material cost nearly in half. If the gov't lets you call that
cider and the public will buy it, why wouldn't you do it?
BUT why on earth would CAMRA lend its voice to support such practices?!?
In a bizarre twist of logic, CAMRA decries the use of apple concentrates
(meaning: simply concentrated apple juice) in cider-making. How can con-
centrated juice possibly be a worse ingredient than industrial sugar-syrup?
At least the concentrate originated from apples!
Moreover, if CAMRA takes such a position in favor of industrial half-cider,
who is going to advocate for real cider? By that, I mean "the fermented
juice of the apple, with nothing added and nothing taken away"--as CAMRA's
web page suggested before it got down to the ugly industrial truth.
Of course, there is an obvious question: "What does CAMRA have to say about
all this?" I'll tell you: I don't know. I wrote to them whatever six or
eight years ago it was that I first saw it, and got no response. I sent
them email this week, and so far have received no response. It's not as if
CAMRA owes me a response, but you might think that if they give an email
address for comments, they'd at least acknowledge mail. Frankly, I'm
hoping that some of the good folks on this list who are also CAMRA members
will find us some answers.
_____
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Mr. Natural says, "Get the right tool for the job."
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End of Cider Digest #961
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