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Cider Digest #1014
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #1014, 31 December 2002
Cider Digest #1014 31 December 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
glad to hear it all ("Rand Dawson")
keeving info ("Diane Gagnon")
Tannin/Phenol Measurement (Fred L Johnson)
Re: Cider Digest #1013, 29 December 2002 (Lee Elliott)
sharing information (Derek Bisset)
Freeze dried fruit ("John A. Ray")
Tannin in Cider (Andrew Lea)
technical vs nontechnical ("Ingels, Dr Stephen")
sources for sweet cider in CA (mike tomlinson)
Happy New Year (Andrew Lea)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: glad to hear it all
From: "Rand Dawson" <rdawson@oregonfast.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 10:53:22 -0800
As a new reader of the Digest, I am pleased to hear all of the
discussion, regardless of how you may choose to use the terminology. I'm
sure the readers are able to sort out their respective needs and
interests. I'm particularly encouraged to think I can access information
that shows how a "minimalist" approach to chemicals equates to reliable
or traditional cider-making practices.
Regards to all, rand dawson in Oregon.
------------------------------
Subject: keeving info
From: "Diane Gagnon" <gagnond@endirect.qc.ca>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:52:45 -0500
Being relatively new to the CD ,this " keeving technic " which everybody
talk about is intriguing me quite a bit ,can i have some kind of
explanation, about it , being interested to any explorating,
experimenting in the cider making process. Denis
------------------------------
Subject: Tannin/Phenol Measurement
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson@portbridge.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:24:24 -0500
Regarding the recent post by Terry Maloney regarding tannin measurements,
and at the risk of turning off those who are not interested in the moore
technical aspects of this hobby, what's the relationship between tannin and
phenols. And can someone provide a non-HPLC method (wet chemistry
colorimetric or UV method) for measuring tannins?
I found this reference:
MAKKAR, H.P.S. 1994. Quantification of tannins- A laboratory manual.
International Centre for Agricultural Research In the Dry areas (ICARDA)
Aleppo Syria.
I have also run across the "Butanol-HCl-iron method" and the "Total phenols
by Folin-Ciocalteu or ferric chloride assay"
Can anyone describe the details of the methods? I haven't done any library
work yet.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1013, 29 December 2002
From: applehilorchard@webtv.net (Lee Elliott)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 07:26:38 -0600 (CST)
Here are some dumb questions but I have 3 well known books on cider that
don't address it? Does using plastic carboys or plastic milk jugs
impart a plastic flavor to cider if made or stored in same? When they
say top off, do they mean use more sweet cider or fermented cider? Do
you sulfite this cider used to top off? If so how much? Is there a
problem fermenting half a carboy with half air in it? Am I risking
contamination by acetobacter every time I sample cider so keep sampling
to a minimum or not at all? Should I sterilise my wine thief every time
and what do I use to sterilise it? Will it ruin cider to jug it and
freeze it for long periods like I do sweet cider? I'm kind of gun-shy
because I've had batches go bad and no idea what I did wrong. Lee
Elliott Winchester, Illinois
------------------------------
Subject: sharing information
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@telus.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 09:09:22 -0800
As a nob-commercial cider maker with a small home orchard and no
access to technical equipment I value all the contributions to the digest .
Unlike beer and wine these days there is almost no information on cider
making available and I take any ideas I can get.
I would value even more being able to taste more varieties of cider
but there is little available. Here in Vancouver the liquor monopoly mostly
has cider as flavoured coolers .I think the discussion might be different
if we could taste one another's cider , but in the meantime we have only
words , including the technical stuff as a means of sharing .
I am fortunate in having a few other non-commercial cider makers in
the area and when we get together discussion is mostly about taste and
what went into getting the taste , decidedly non-technical. I think we each
prefer our own cider made with what we have while each admitting that our
cider could be improved.
At a recent tasting the highlight was to be a bottle of precious
pear cider brought carefully all the way from France by one of the group.
It turned out to be undrinkable . It was clear ,fizzy , sour ,and so harsh
tasting that it was left to be dumped , The strongest condemnation came
from the cider maker who had bought it without first tasting it .He said he
had tasted other pear ciders there that were excellent .I thought it was
something I would want to avoid making .
We had met in a small restaurant in Vancouver and the owner
produced a bottle of French cider made on a farm in his home area in
Brittany . Everyone agreed it was the opposite of the pear cider . It was
light brown , aromatic , sweet (4.8% alc.) with good tart balance ,
astringent and full in the mouth . I thought I would like my cider to be
more like that one. It would be nice to be able to see the way it is made
but for now the about only way I have of finding out how to make my cider
more like it is through experiment which I only get to do once a year .We
don't have a tradition of cider making here to turn to for advice.
I can't use the technical numbers very much but I get ideas about
directions to take in my once a year attempt to make a cider I like and I
am glad that some of you are doing and sharing the technical stuff.
------------------------------
Subject: Freeze dried fruit
From: "John A. Ray" <jar18@lamar.colostate.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:19:39 -0700
Greetings and happy new year!
I've spotted lots of trees in and around our area with considerable
fruit still hanging...of course this stuff is likely "freeze-dried" in
our Colorado climate. This year I hadn't had time during the normal
harvest season to make any new cider ...and my wife quickly points out
that I have "MANY" carboys yet to drink...I have just now thought of
gathering some of this "fruit" to experiment with and was wondering if
anyone has tried to make a palatable drink from anything like this...I
was going to gather fruit, grind and boil it to see what kind of liquid
I would get, but didn't want to anoy my wife with a delayed invasion of
the kitchen if it would all turn out for nought.
Any help, comments greatly appreciated!
Happy brewing
- --
John A. Ray
Colorado State University
Research Associate
W.D. Holley Floriculture Research Program
Department of Horticulture & Landscape Architecture
111 Shepardson Bldg
Fort Collins CO 80523-1173
970.491.4615 (Office)
970.491.7745 (FAX)
------------------------------
Subject: Tannin in Cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:22:55 +0000
Terry Maloney gave the following figures for total phenolics (aka
'tannin' in this context):
Dabinett 1300 ppm (0.13%)
Tremlett's Bitter (Geneva) 1116 ppm (0.11%)
These are somewhat lower than the UK 'textbook' values for these apples.
For the nerds, geeks and anoraks amongst us, I have just uploaded some
new data on cider tannins to my website - largely because of the
considerable recent interest in this subject both on and off-list.
The first page <
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/tannin.htm >
describes something about tannin and how it can vary plus or minus 50%
across seasons, even in just one orchard. It also gives a table of data
I just obtained on some single variety ciders using the two standard
methods for tannin analysis (Permanganate Titration and Folin-Ciocalteau
colorimetry). The second (linked) page describes those methods in full
laboratory detail.
Not everyone will want to check this out. But maybe some people will find
it of interest. As Dick so wisely says, curiosity and learning are fun!!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: technical vs nontechnical
From: "Ingels, Dr Stephen" <SIngels@nrh-ok.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:14:31 -0600
Greetings to all!
I would like to give a testimonial to the merits of both technical and
nontechnical discussions of cider making and drinking, so as to
encourage more of both.
On the technical side, I believe it is useful to have some
understanding of what is happening biologically and chemically during
cider making. For instance, I was able to recognize and appropriately
handle a film yeast last year that might have ruined a third of my
cider. Also, for someone like myself, not living in the center of apple
country, who has never had the opportunity to taste real cider apples
(or much real cider for that matter), it is useful to know things such
as pH, acid content, and specific gravity just so that I know if I am
coming anywhere near the mark. As a text-based medium, I think that the
cider digest is well suited to technical issues. (But what joy if we
could taste the cider over the internet!)
I wonder if some of the expressed conflict between "technical" and
"nontechnical" is actually a conflict between "simple" and "elaborate".
For now I am getting good results with a simple procedure, but I am only
making a dry sparkling cider and the concensus seems to be that it is
fairly easy and reliable to produce such a cider. On the other hand, I
have now had the opportunity to enjoy two bottles of French cider, with
very nice residual sweetness, interesting aroma, and tannins; someday I
might like to attempt the keeving, etc., that apparently are necessary
for that style and I will want to know as much as I can about it before
making the effort.
In support of the nontechnical, I have been particularly interested in
the cider-tasting results that have been posted. It is nice to have an
advance opinion on which commercial ciders would be worth a try since
they are not in the liquor stores around here and I have to have them
shipped to me. Historical issues have also been interesting, and I have
enjoyed the travel stories.
Though I am still a novice, the digest has helped me to improve my
cider over the last couple of years and it is now quite enjoyable (just
ask my mother-in-law). So, thank you to everyone who has written to the
cider digest, and in particular Dick Dunn and Andrew Lea.
Happy New Year!
Steve Ingels
------------------------------
Subject: sources for sweet cider in CA
From: mike tomlinson <tugger@netreach.net>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:10:50 -0500
I will be relocating to Santa Cruz CA in mid Jan and am having a hard
time finding unpasteurized cider. Seems the odwalla crisis of several
years ago made everyone at least flash pasteurize. my results the
several times I have tried to ferment limited quantitites of pasteurized
cider have been insipid. Any ideas on either where I can get
unpasteurized juice or what I should do if I must use it. I recall that
several writer in the past have said that it can be used. Thanks
Mike Tomlinson
------------------------------
Subject: Happy New Year
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:21:17 +0000
A Happy New Year to the good ship Cider Digest and to all who sail in
her!!
And especially to Cap'n Dick who keeps our course and steers us away
from the maelstrom of Spam!
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1014
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