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Cider Digest #0965
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #965, 27 April 2002
Cider Digest #965 27 April 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Malo-lactic cultures (Tim Bray)
Cider tree sources (David Pickering)
ML fermentation (Bob and Winnie)
Re: Why does CAMRA like diluted cider? (Dick Dunn)
Stockwood Ren Fsire and Brew-Ha-Ha (Ross Cohn)
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Subject: Malo-lactic cultures
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:20:22 -0700
>We had a discussion about acidity lowering a few months ago. Has anyone
>on the list ever actually added a wine-makers malo-lactic culture to
>cider on a 'craft' scale and got it to work?
What a coincidence - I just got such a culture and am going to try it right
now. I'll try to keep good records and report back to this list with the
results.
I did get a natural MLF in the last batch of "champagne" cider I made. I
used no sulfites, and bottled at about 1.015, so there was a lot of yeast
in the bottles and I think that contributed to the MLF and subsequent
improvement of the cider. Unfortunately I did not have an acid titration
kit then, so can't give you any specific data.
Cheers,
Tim
Albion, CA
Now blooming: Golden Russet, Roxbury Russet, Cox's, Rhode Island Greening,
Wealthy, Winter Banana, Yellow Bellflower, Wickson, Margil, Hewes Virginia
Crab, Lady, Cinnamon Spice, Nehou, White Pearmain, and two mystery trees!
Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net
------------------------------
Subject: Cider tree sources
From: David Pickering <davidp@netwit.net.au>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:55:08 +1000
Very belatedly - remember Cider Digest #957? - an address for cider
trees in Australia.
Clive Winmill
"Badger's Keep"
c/- Post Office
CHEWTON Victoria 3451, Australia
phone & fax 03 5472 3338
Clive has trees or can produce trees depending on the demands for
particular varieties.
He also has a limited range of perry pear varieties.
David Pickering 'Linden Lea' Orange NSW 2800 Australia
------------------------------
Subject: ML fermentation
From: Bob and Winnie <natvwine@cut.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:27:03 -0600
I have had a couple of succesful MLs but not in cider. They have been in
apple wine.
I ferment sur lees in oak barrels without the addition of sulfites.
These are optimun conditions for ML fermentation and I haven't had to
innoculate for a couple of years now.
Hope this helps, I can send more information if interested.
Bob Sorenson
Native Wines
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Why does CAMRA like diluted cider?
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:27:55 -0600 (MDT)
"Dave Matthews" <dave.matthews7@btinternet.com> wrote in CD 963 about CAMRA
and APPLE (the cider side-kick of CAMRA):
> You have to go back to the early 70s, when CAMRA was founded to protect
> cask-conditioned ale. In those days it was simple - good beer contained live
> yeast, poor beer did not. There was no need to look any further into the
> production process, and sadly CAMRA has yet to move on from those simplistic
> days...
That goes a long way toward explaining the background. It *is* curious
that the positions on cider carried over so directly from those on beer.
> CAMRA's cider group, 'APPLE', is a minor sub-division of the overall beery
> scheme of things. They have to follow the general policies of the Mother
> group, and a break away is out of the question when you consider that
> traditional cider and perry benefit from being sold at each of the numerous
> country-wide CAMRA beer festivals throughout the UK...
I guess I would have expected (and am disappointed not to find) that CAMRA
would have started from asking what is different between good ciders and
poor ciders, just as they did for beer. It is not surprising that CAMRA,
having made progress on the declining quality and variety of beer, would
then turn its attention to the declining quality of cider...but it's more
than a bit of a reach to conclude that the same criteria (AND, more im-
portantly, no others) would be the answer for cider.
With respect to the festivals: Do you find "industrial" (chaptalized and
diluted) ciders sold at those festivals as well?
And in CD 964, Ben Watson <bwatson@monad.net> wrote:
> I agree with Dick that anything billed as "real cider" should contain 100%
> juice. That is, the drink should be made from the raw (unpasteurized),
> fresh-pressed juice of apples, and not from apple juice concentrate. This,
> for me, is the main determinant of taste and quality. However, I would not
> automatically exclude from the ranks of real cider those that are
> bottle-pasteurized to halt fermentation (like Rhyne Cyder, Sonoma, CA);
> those that are filtered to remove yeasts and halt fermentation (West County
> Ciders, Colrain, MA); or those that are force-carbonated at bottling (like
> Farnum Hill's Farmhouse Cider from Lebanon, NH)...
I don't mind the idea of the CAMRA/APPLE rules that exclude pasteurized
and/or filtered ciders *IF* there is also a rule that ciders be made from
100% juice. I think that the sum of those may be too high a standard, in
the sense that they exclude too many good ciders such as the ones Ben
mentions. BUT I think it's fair to create a restrictive category. It's a
matter of consistency. And if you are going to take a step outward from
that restrictive category, relaxing a rule or two but still trying to define
a good cider, the "100% juice" rule is the LAST one you should relax.
As for my own biases...
Personally, I wish I could insist on 100% juice as the base. I would look
askance at pasteurization. I don't mind filtering because I think that it
is self-limiting: If you over-filter, you'll strip out flavor/character, so
you'll find the proper balance without any external dogma. I don't like
force-carbonation because I think carbonation is over-used. (It's an
American affliction: over-carbonated soft drinks, horribly over-carbonated
beers.) I'd like "artisanal" sparkling ciders to be methode champenoise
and let them be elite...if you're going to carbonate, take the time to do
it "right" (again, _my_ bias!). The alternative, in the wine world, is the
"Charmat bulk process" and the word "bulk" nails how I feel about that.
>...I also don't see how one
> could eliminate sulfites, yeast nutrients, etc. from commercial ciders,
> artisanal or not. And, now that I think of it, you might also make
> exceptions to allow "natural" adjuncts added before primary fermentation
> like raisins or other fruits or fruit juices. A bigger question is whether
> to allow any honey or sugar or other adjuncts to be added before primary
> fermentation, and if so how much.
Ah, but if you allow raisins, why not honey? Certainly one of the main
purposes of the raisins is to increase sugar content.
When you add any of other fruit/juice, honey, or raisins, you're creating a
"specialty" cider. In the mead world we've got a plethora of such special-
ties. These can carry their own names and obey their own variations of
"rules" (standards) without confusing the basic idea of cider too badly.
Even adding sugar may make sense in some situations: If you get some
apples which are wonderful other than being not ripe enough to have enough
sugar, what should you do? Start with 1.040 juice and risk a spoiled
cider? Or add some sugar so that you'll get enough alcohol? Seems like an
obvious choice. This may offend the sensibilities of folks who live where
the weather isn't wildly fickle and the crops are fairly predictable, but
I'd guess where the weather is erratic, "chaptalization" (by whatever name)
is part and parcel of "traditional" cider.
So you can ask where you draw the line. Insipidustrial ciders have added
sugar too, right? BUT the difference I see is the dilution: they boost the
gravity to get a lot of alcohol (from cheap sugar) and then dilute the
result. Other industrial makers slip the dilution by you in the form of
adding carbonated water (instead of forcing CO2) to get a sparkling cider.
Is "no dilution; no added water" a good hard-and-fast rule? I think so.
The devil's advocate will object that once in a while you get juice with
so much sugar that the starting gravity is over the top for a traditional
strength of cider. I guess I'd say if you are that lucky, why don't you
make a strong cider and keep it for sipping instead of quaffing?
Musings such as Ben's shed more light on Dave's observations of CAMRA's
difficulties: If you're going to take on a campaign against mediocre
food (yes, cider is a food!), and face off against strong industrial
interests and money, you've got to have simple, ironclad rules...else
they'll dodge right past you.
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Mr. Natural says, "Get the right tool for the job."
------------------------------
Subject: Stockwood Ren Fsire and Brew-Ha-Ha
From: Ross Cohn <artnculture@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 07:57:57 -0700 (PDT)
Hi all,
I wanted to let everyone know about an amateur brewing
contest and Ren Faire being held on the East Coast...
It's in Upstate NY, and for those of you who may live
in the Tri-State Area it's about 1 1/2 to 2 hours away
from NYC. I went last year and it was a blast, not
the largest Ren Faire out there but it was a lot of
fun and a good day trip for me and my cohorts. The
Brewing Contest is set up well this year and it's an
opportunity to meet other brewers:
http://www.stockwoodfaire.com/
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End of Cider Digest #965
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