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Cider Digest #0968
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #968, 6 May 2002
Cider Digest #968 6 May 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE: preventing MLF (Brian Lundeen)
Cider Regs ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Re: Cider Digest #967, 2 May 2002 (PLawre1031@aol.com)
Re: Cider Digest #967, 2 May 2002 (Dave Kain)
Re: Cider Digest #967, 2 May 2002 (Bill Rhyne)
Cider Digest #967, 2 May 2002 (Allen Alexander)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: preventing MLF
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen@rrc.mb.ca>
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 16:04:46 -0500
Benjamin Watson wrote:
>
> 5. As to malolactic fermentation, some commercial cidermakers
> try to avoid this at any cost -- though it can sometimes
> sound like the Holy Grail for home cidermakers. I'm pretty
> casual about MLF; sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.
My apologies if this has been brought up before, but those that fall into
the "avoid at all cost" camp might want to consider a comparatively new
product on the amateur scene called lysozyme. You can read up on it here
http://www.inovatech.com/product.htm#inovapure (view the wine brochure,
you'll need Acrobat) It destroys several strains of bacteria including
lactobacillus and pediococcus.
I can't provide sources for it for those of you in all parts of the world,
but here in Canada I buy it from a Vancouver distributor, Bosa Grape and
Juice. They have a site at http://www.bosagrape.com/ Contact them for
details.
Cheers
Brian
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Regs
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 18:47:41 -0700
In regards with cider regulations, start with http://www.atf.treas.gov/.
Look up Title 27, the various sections can be downloaded. Enjoy. I think you
will find cider is something greater than 1/2% and less than 7% alcohol by
volume.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #967, 2 May 2002
From: PLawre1031@aol.com
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 23:08:10 -0400
Would you please change my email address to....baskervilla@hotmail.com
Thanks for your assistance
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #967, 2 May 2002
From: Dave Kain <dpk1@nysaes.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 08:53:50 -0400
Re: Baldwin cider
Tim Bray wrote: >Subject: Baldwin Cider
>From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
>Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:15:56 -0700
>
>
>>This past winter we made a totally dry Baldwin Cider.
>
> From pure Baldwin juice, or a blend?
>
>I'm curious because Baldwin apparently is a low-chill variety that might do
>well here. If it is good enough to make a varietal cider, then maybe I
>should plant more of it.
Tim,
A few years ago I made cider using Baldwins, alone or blended with crab
juice. I had great hopes for it because I think that Baldwins are one of
the best eating varieties ever developed. (Unfortunately they don't have
all those "other" characteristics that today's consumer demands) And, they
seemed to have characteristics that might do well in a cider. However, they
were really disappointing as cider. I found it exactly the way as described
in (I believe) Proulx & Nichols - "flat and insipid". Little more than
water. Blending with crab did little to help.
That's just my two cents. I'm not much of a cider maker and I don't want to
discourage anybody from trying a batch with Baldwins. But I wouldn't want
to see anyone invest in planting them for use in a varietal hard cider
without having tried it (or hearing opinions from those who have) first.
However, they would, in my opinion, be worth planting to eat.
Hope this helps,
Dave Kain
694 Gravel Rd.
Seneca Falls, NY 13148
email: dpk1@nysaes.cornell.edu
Ph. Day 315-787-2333
Eve. 315-568-0112
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #967, 2 May 2002
From: Bill Rhyne <theo9us@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 06:50:31 -0700 (PDT)
Hello to all from Kunming, China!
This is Bill Rhyne on another one of my teaching
trips.
Regarding Tim Bray's questions about Baldwin apples,
we fermented some Baldwin apples from Dave Hale's farm
in Sebastopol a couple of years in a dry sparkling
style and served it at the San Francisco Vintner's
Club Champagne and Pate tasting in December a year
later. It went over very well with the wine crowd. It
is still doing well in the bottle and it has been
there since 1997. Speaking of which, My wife, my
sister-in-law, and I had a little blind tasting of
ciders last month. I had a vertical selection of our
ciders 1996, 1997, 1999, and 2000, two ciders from
Normandy, industrial ciders (Ace, Wyders, Dry
Blackthorn) and an organic cider, Wolaver's, which is
made by Dave Kordtz of Sonoma Cider Mill in Healdsburg
for Wolaver's. I taste the ciders all of the time so I
wanted a more objective but educated palate as my
wife's and my sister-in-law's. The 1997 seemed a
little flawed--cloudy and too tart. But the 1st choice
was our original commercial batch from 1996. Our 1999
and 2000 came in 2nd and 3rd, with Wolaver's fourth.
This proves not much but we felt good that we still
liked what we are making better than what is available
in the market. The other surpise is that the best
cider was the oldest cider so maybe there is some
voodoo going on during storage.
With regard to sulfite use, we buy our fresh juice
right after the juicer crushes it at the plant in
Sebastopol, fill up our barrels in the back of my
pickup truck, and head back to Sonoma. We put some SO2
in the barrels right before loading up as the cider
will start fermenting very quickly on the way back to
the barn and the SO2 prevents juice from fermenting
and the barrels from exploding. We use the 50ppm
ratio. Other than that, we have a copy of Andrew's
paper and Bene's experience in winemaking to guide us
in the other SO2 uses.
That's all for now!
Bill Rhyne
Rhyne Cyder
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Digest #967, 2 May 2002
From: Allen Alexander <allenalexander1@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 07:25:52 -0700 (PDT)
Re: ATF Cider Definitions
Tim,
For accurate information on wine/beer/whiskey/taxes/etc.
definitions one needs to consult the United States Code (USC), the Code of
Federal Regulations and the Federal Register. I say this almost tongue in
cheek because unless you are trained and experienced in this kind of
research AND familiar with the particular areas you are looking for your
efforts will only lead to increased consumption of hard cider because of
frustration.
For those unfamiliar with these materials the US Code are the
statutes enacted by Congress. CFR contains the regulations promulgated by
the various federal agencies. The Federal Register contains regulations
that have been issued recently and not yet published in CFR and other
materials. One can find these sources on line fairly easily at
http://findlaw.com.
It happens that I am a lawyer so I have a bit of a head start in
researching these materials. I have never practiced in the particular
areas where hard cider is governed so I lack specific experience.
I recently sought information on whether cider was governed by the
U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) as a "food" or by the department
of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) as an alcoholic beverage. My
curiosity arose from the fact that commercial cider contains "Nutritional
Information" which is required on "food" but not on alcoholic beverages
such as beer, wine, and whiskey. My efforts led to increased
consumption of hard cider but not to any hard information.
What I found was that hard cider is taxed under ATF regulations but
is also covered under regulations of USDA. My efforts were purely to
satisfy personal curiosity so I pretty much gave up after a certain
point. I did not find out the answer to my question.
Should you undertake to dive into the murk of feATFal regulatoy
material I can only wish you luck; I am lacking in guidence.
- - Allen
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End of Cider Digest #968
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