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Cider Digest #0947
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #947, 5 February 2002
Cider Digest #947 5 February 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE: Cider and (freeze) distillation ("McGonegal, Charles")
cider marketing (Samuel Hyland)
looking for a good press ("Walt Harris")
Re: Cider Digest #946, 30 January 2002 ()
bad stuff in cider (Bob and Winnie)
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Subject: RE: Cider and (freeze) distillation
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <cpmcgone@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:47:49 -0600
There are a number of fermentation by-products that are normally
very dilute in wine. Methanol, acetaldehyde, 2,3 butanediol, and heavier
alcohols also known as fusel oils. Most are metabolic products unrelated to
alcoholic fermentation. Pectin breakdown and fruit acid digestion account
for a lot.
All are toxic to some extent - so is ethanol for that matter, but
they are dilute in wine - maybe 1-2% of the ethanol amount. Heavy alcohols
are usually very intoxicating compared to ethanol. I understand that Soviet
era Russians would spike vodka with n-propanol (not iso-propyl 'rubbing'
alcohol) for the extra kick. But things like n-pentanol are extra toxic,
too.
Since these materials have different boiling points than ethanol, a
distillation can sort them out. Lighter and heavier fractions can simply be
discarded.
A fractional crystalization (freeze distillation), however,
concentrates ALL non-water components equally. Ethanol and other compounds
alike get left behind. Hence apple jack's reputation for potentcy AND
hangovers.
Simply letting it air for a while would let things like acetaldehyde
(which gives Budweiser ITS kick) evaporate off. The alcohol dehydrogenase
enyzme prefers ethanol over methanol, so competitive excluse keeps _low_
levels of methanol from being toxic. (The liver works on the ethanol, while
the kidneys flush out the methanol.) But there's no way to remove the
higher order alcohols other than distillation.
>Subject: Cider and (freeze) distillation
>From: David Bourgeois <david@muelec.fpms.ac.be>
>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:16:30 +0100
>I remeber some discussions about the production of brandy by freeze
>distillation.
>Ian A. Merwin noted that "it's worth noting that the heads and
tails of cider
>distillation contain some relatively unsavory and toxic compounds".
>So, these toxic substances (methanol,...) are present in the cider?
>Is it the dilution in the cider that makes them allowed to drink?
>Can someone explain about this? I red the Annie Proulx and Lew
Nichols' book
>one year ago and don't remember any explanation of this.
>Thanks,
>David Bourgeois
------------------------------
Subject: cider marketing
From: Samuel Hyland <sih12@columbia.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:14:54 -0800
Sir,
I don't know if this comes under potential materiel for the Cider Digest
but if so I would very much appreciate it if you could include the
following message.
We are looking for a cidery to contract manufacture a hard cider product
to test market under our own label. We are looking for a dry cider of
up to 6.9% alcohol.
One of us is a lawyer familiar with ATF and state authorities. We will
take care of all legal requirements related to contract manufacturing.
If you have extra capacity and an interest in further discussion we
would like to get in
touch with you and can be reached at (917) 692-1193 or at
palm70@aol.com.
If you are not interested in working with us but would be willing to
share your experiences bringing cider to market, or if you could
recommend another cidery who might be interested, we also would much
appreciate a chance to talk to you.
Thanks,
Si Hyland
Brandywine Cider Company
(917) 692-1193
------------------------------
Subject: looking for a good press
From: "Walt Harris" <wdh@psnw.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:31:21 -0800
In the last digest Judson Carleton wrote:
Subject: looking for a good press
From: "Judson Carleton" <jhcarleton@theofficenet.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 21:33:25 -0800
Hello everyone,
I am looking for a good cider press or plans, if anyone has one, to
For anyone interested I have a Goodnature SX 200 for sale. You can look
at the press on the website: www.goodnature.com/juice/sx200.html
Its been barely used, located in Central California
If interested contact: Walt Harris<wdh@psnw.com>
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #946, 30 January 2002
From: <shroom@theriver.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:56:21 -0700
> Subject: cider failure
> From: mike tomlinson <tugger@netreach.net>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 06:45:22 -0800
>
> Pasteurized juice
> I, unfortunately, had to make my last batch of hard cider here in
> California from pasteurized store bought bottled "cider" and it failed
> to generate any noticable alcohol levels.
> from how I make it in the east is the basic juice- a big difference -
> for my Pennsylvania cider usually comes in at +/-15%.
> I have read mixed opinions on whether or not you can use pasteurized
> juice but from my view you cannot. I'd appreciate any knowledge anyone
> can share on this.
> Thanks
> Mike Tomlinson
>
> ------------------------------
Mike:
I have used pasteurized juice (uh "cider") without any noticeable change in
the alcohol content. There was a flavor difference, of course, that can't
be helped. The only thing I can think of that would affect yeast
performance is either pH problem or they actually used preservatives in
their juice.
Fred Bourdelier
Tucson AZ
------------------------------
Subject: bad stuff in cider
From: Bob and Winnie <natvwine@cut.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 20:44:04 -0700
> David,
>
While I am no microbiologist, I have fermented, distilled and tasted
ciders and their distillates produced under different circunstances and
can offer some qualitative feedback on fusel oils, etc.
First of all, Methanol is a toxic chemical added to alcoholic solutions
in order to render them poisonous to humans. This is done in the hope
that 1. people will not drink "rubbing alcohol" or other nonbeverage
alcoholic products and 2. people will purchase tax paid products that
the government has licensed and recieved money for.
Cider and other fruit based fermentive products do contain undesireable
compounds, chief among these are fusel oils. To put it loosely, these
fusel oils are to calvados what turpentine is to ethanol, or what a
headache is to inspiration.
Two factors will affect how much "bad stuff "is in the distillate; 1.
how old the cider is: When cider is properly aged it will either convert
(chemically) or drop out (sedimentation) most of the "bad stuff" and 2.
the conditions under which the juice was fermented; when the yeast is
stressed by excess temperature, inadequate nutrition or the presence of
too much sulfer or nitrogen it will produce byproducts that will
adversely affect cider and it's distillate.
So, one way to avoid "bad stuff" is to properly age cider before
distillation (subjective) and the other is to discard the heads and
tails of the distillate (which takes a fair amount of experience).
Regardless of what the Annie and Lew book says I would relate a friends
recollection of "cyderheads" while living in England. These were the
poor souls in England who were overly devoted to the benefits of
"cidre". They tended to posess red eyes, foggy speech, foggy memory and
a large appetite for cidre; perhaps these folks are in dire need of
proper dilution. : )
> Subject: Cider and (freeze) distillation
> From: David Bourgeois
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:16:30 +0100
>
> I remeber some discussions about the production of brandy by freeze
> distillation.
> Ian A. Merwin noted that "it's worth noting that the heads and tails of cider
> distillation contain some relatively unsavory and toxic compounds".
> So, these toxic substances (methanol,...) are present in the cider?
> Is it the dilution in the cider that makes them allowed to drink?
> Can someone explain about this? I red the Annie Proulx and Lew Nichols' book
> one year ago and don't remember any explanation of this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David Bourgeois
>
> ------------------------------
>
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #947
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