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Cider Digest #0927
Subject: Cider Digest #927, 30 October 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #927 30 October 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Doing WHAT with trad French cider? | Pressure in bottles (David Bourgeois)
Bramley fermentation ("Benjamin Watson")
First cider queries (Andrew Lea)
press plans ("toddweaver")
Perry plans ("Always and Ortiz")
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Subject: Re: Doing WHAT with trad French cider? | Pressure in bottles
From: David Bourgeois <david@su3.muelec.fpms.ac.be>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:35:15 +0200
> Subject: Doing WHAT with trad French cider?
> From: Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au
> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:39:50 +1000
>
> David Bourgeois <david@su3.muelec.fpms.ac.be>
> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:13:33 +0200
>
> wrote in Cider Digest #924: I'll made it the traditional way used in France
> (No addition at all, cuvage, defecation,...).
>
> I hope this was just a translation error...
I guess you mean the last word? The second sense of Defecation is to clarify
or remove impurities from a solution, esp. of sugar. Defecation is a natural
separation of cider and impurities, lees and yeast nutrients to achieve a very
slow fermentation which will stop before consuming all sugars. The resulting
cider will be sweet without addition of sugars.
Extract of the Annie Proulx Cider book: For french cider, the expressed must
has to undergo a natural purging, or defecation, before fermentation. (In
England this process is called keeving) In a few days the pectic material in
the juice coagulates through enzymatic action, and when the process is well
established, it covers the surface of the must with brown scum called
"chapeau brun" that is kept buoyed up by the rising bubbles of CO2. The
lees sink and are deposited at the bottom of the vessel. Most of the yeasts,
bacteria, and molds are captured in the lees and the chapeau brun. This process
also brings about an important decrease in the nitrogen content of the juice.
After racking off from his lees and chapeau brun and so deprived of nitrogen,
the must ferments very slowly and gradually purifies itself, becoming
increasingly likely to give a naturally sweet cider.
One question, I've read that CO2 pressure will naturally stop yeast activity.
Have any idea at which pressure? This is the case when if bottling dry cider,
you add sugar to get a sweet sparkling cider. But I met people having bottles
exploding of too much sugar addition in cider or no sufficient pasteurization
of apple juice. Is it possible in Champagne type bottles which can resist at
very high pressure?
Thanks
David Bourgeois
------------------------------
Subject: Bramley fermentation
From: "Benjamin Watson" <bwatson@mcttelecom.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:24:19 -0400
Robert Kirby asks,
> My problem is that my first load has not started fermenting yet - 5 days. I
> have it indoors 60-70 degrees F. in a fermentation barrel with air-lock.
> I do not really want to add yeasts, I'm trying for the natural ones. I have
> read that it can take 2 weeks to start.
> 1. Is this correct?
> 2. Should I add yeast nutrients?
There may be several factors involved here.
1. You are fermenting only Bramley juice. We don't grow many Bramley's
Seedling in the US, but it's a very acidic apple. That may be slowing things
down and keeping the natural yeasts from getting started. I know a little
about this, because about one-third of the cider my friends and I press
comes from a local seedling named 'Castle Rock', which is a hard, very
acidic apple that we have in quantity. We always make a very snappy-tasting
cider; acid level is close to 0.9. Next time, if you use only natural
yeasts, I would recommend pressing and fermenting the Bramley with other
fruit -- perhaps low-acid, high-sugar, high-tannin English bittersweets, to
which it appears you have access.
2. Did you affix the fermentation lock at the very beginning? In my
experience yeast needs to have a supply of oxygen at the start of
fermentation to get things going well. I generally leave an empty space
(ullage) in the primary fermenter, to let the yeast contact air and allow
room to foam up in a "brown cap". Then, once things settle down from the
first vigorous ferment, I top up the vessel with fresh room-temperature
cider and affix the airlock to protect against unwanted bacteria, etc. But
when the yeast is going great guns, it throws off considerable carbon
dioxide, which helps guard against interlopers. At most I cover the top of
the vessel loosely with plastic wrap to exclude insects or dust.
3. Another point that I have learned is that the fresh-pressed juice must
itself be oxygenated to get fermentation off to a good start. Last year I
fermented in the same carboy I filled from the bulk tank at the mill. The
resulting ferment, for this and other reasons, took much longer than usual.
This fall, I took the carboys and racked the contents into another vessel,
thus adding as much oxygen to the liquid as possible. The resulting
fermentation started much more quickly, even with my "control" batch that
does not contain a commercial yeast culture.
4. In terms of yeast nutrient, I rarely use it, but probably should because
we use so many apples that grow wild or on unfertilized orchard ground. If
your Bramley and other trees grow on ground that is not composted or
otherwise enriched, it would probably be worth adding yeast nutrient.
------------------------------
Subject: First cider queries
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:18:07 +0100
Carmen wrote:
> I then tasted a
> sample - not sure what I expected but this was not it!
People making their first cider are frequently disappointed - they
expect something as full-bodied as a beer or a wine or an apple juice
and it isn't. Sometimes this is due to too high an acid level and it
also helps if you can make it from proper bittersweet cider fruit but
few of us have that luxury. Mostly, as Carmen says, the final sugar
level is too low - a fully fermented cider can be very dry especially
if you use a wine yeast.Using a natural yeast often seems to be an
improvement since they work much slower and you can stop the
fermentation more easily before it finishes. (Note the brewer's
concept of high / low attenuation yeasts does not apply in wine
and cidermaking because all apple and grape sugars are fully
fermentable. In beer worts there can be up to 50% maltose oligomers
which many yeasts cannot tackle - hence it's relatively easier
to make a full-bodied beer with residual sweetness
than it is a cider or a wine)
> In the future if I wanted a cider
> more like the commercial examples one sees on draft in the US
> and UK could I stop the fermentation when the SG is somewhere
> around 1.015 thus leaving a bit of residual sweetness?
> If so what would be a better way to do that, via heat to
> kill the yeast or via chemicals?
I would go for sweetening and in-bottle pasteurisation. Chemicals
are not reliable. Remember that the majority of draft UK ciders are
fermented to dryness, then sweetened with sugar and saccharin, and
then pasteurised and carbonated before kegging. See the Ag-Canada
booklet (my website or via Bill at The Squeeze)for details of
how to do it at home. But it's very difficult to stop a cider
fermentation at 1.015 unless it's very slow - better to go to
dryness, sweeten, and then bottle. And it must be bottles - 'tis
almost impossible to do *in bulk* at home because you cannot
maintain it sterile after heating.
In similar vein, Robert wrote:
> My problem is that my first load has not started fermenting yet - 5 days.
> I do not really want to add yeasts, I'm trying for the natural ones. I have
> read that it can take 2 weeks to start.
> 1. Is this correct?
> 2. Should I add yeast nutrients?
Yes it can take 2 weeks to start especially with natural yeasts and
a low pH (high acid juice) like Bramley . It takes a while for the
yeast cells to multiply up enough to get going. In later years
this happens quicker because you build up a natural yeast microflora
on your press parts and cloths.
If you're going the natural yeast route (slow and steady, hoping to
rack off with residual sugar) it seems pointless to add nutrients
to speed it up again! Different considerations apply with cultured
wine yeasts. Personally I only ever use sulphite-controlled wild
yeasts these days and I'm very pleased with how it works for me.
Although brought up to use cultured yeasts I would not go back to
them now!
BTW Bramley is a very acid apple (usually well in excess of 1% acid).
I think that Robert will need to keep some residual sweetness (or
sweeten later as described above) if he is to keep the cider
anywhere near to drinkable.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
Postcript - it's funny how people expect their cider fermentations to
start and finish at the clappers. Would you expect a wine to be ready in
two weeks? Traditional ciders in the northern hemisphere were put up to
start in say October time and did not finish until April!! We're all so
concerned with speed these days perhaps we've forgotten the basics!
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: press plans
From: "toddweaver" <toddweaver@superonline.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:11:50 +0300
This is my first post to the digest and first interest in making cider. I've
searched the web for plans for a cider press but have only found a couple of
examples, both really lacking in details. Are there good plans out there for
a novice woodworker?
Todd
Incirlik AB, Turkey
------------------------------
Subject: Perry plans
From: "Always and Ortiz" <Altiz@rightathome.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:03:22 -0800
I'm an apple and pear grower in the Wenatchee River Valley of Washington
State. I've been making and enjoying cider for many years, based on
blends of Newtown Pippin, Jonagold and various crabs (Dolgo, Manchurian
and Hopa). I had never attempted perry until a while back, after being
enchanted by a French perry from Normandy (I can't recall the producer's
name) that was very well balanced with acid and tannin and retained a
marvelous pear aroma ( and was close to $12 for 750 ml.!)
One of the first perries was based on Bosc, crushed and pressed when
firm-ripe. Grape tannin (1 t/gal) and tartaric acid (2 t/gal) were
added to the juice. In collaboration with two fellow fermentors, this
juice was divided into three lots and fermented with three different
yeasts: 1) Cote des Blancs (Epernay), 2) a "cider yeast" from Wyeast
Labs in Hood River, OR, and 3) a wild yeast (or yeast complex) from an
earlier apple cider to which no commercial yeast had been added. This
particular cider had been notable for its fine fragrance. Months later
we sampled the three perries. Numbers 1 and 2 were pleasant but
unremarkable. Number 3, however, had that wonderful pear smell that was
evident even before the nose entered the glass. I was impressed by the
effect of yeast on the taste and other qualities of cider, and have
continued to use this yeast in later batches.
My fellow grower and fermentor Scott has grafted in ten or more perry
varieties, most from the germplasm collection at Oregon State
University. Until we have fruit to use and experiment with, we need to
add tannin and acid to the dessert pears (mainly Bartlett and Bosc) that
are the base of our perries. Crabapples have worked well, but don't add
to the "peariness" of the product. We are trying a new approach this
fall. On an old homestead up a side canyon are a number of seedling
pears that have either grown up from the seedling rootstock of the
original trees or are the result of animals (probably bears; lots of
scat there!) distributing the seeds. Some of these trees approach 40'
in height and many are quite thorny. Fruits are mostly round, 1-2" in
diameter. We tasted 7 different "varieties". Some had sweetness and
aroma, and all had high to VERY high levels of tannin. The variety I
pressed yielded slightly less than 1 gallon of juice for 40# of fruit.
Tasting the juice revealed dramatic tannin, but also measured 21 Brix!
We'll have fun determining what proportion to add to the base perry.
A question for other perry makers. What have you done to add
tannin/acid/flavor to your perry, if you are using dessert pear
varieties? If you are using perry cultivars, which ones do you favor?
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #927
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