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Cider Digest #0907
Subject: Cider Digest #907, 25 June 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #907 25 June 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Watering trees ("John A. Ray")
K 2 ? ("K" cider mutates) (Dick Dunn)
Cider in BC ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
New Cider Book (Andrew Lea)
Ace Cider Geysers (Andrew Lea)
Bottle Age (Andrew Lea)
Vancouver thanks and Lyne Down info ("David Matthews")
Stopping fermentation (David Pickering)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Watering trees
From: "John A. Ray" <jar18@lamar.colostate.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:20:35 -0600
With regard to the recent thread started by Dick on tree watering.
I would recommend the Netafim web site
(http://www.netafim-usa.com/ag/products/default.asp) for information on types of
micro-irrigation systems.
I have had experience in orchard systems with the "Ram" line which has
pressure-compensating emitters inside the pipe at various spacings and flow
rates per your choice - a very nice system. I have also had experience with
the "pop-in" type of emitters spaced at 18" on either side of the trunk at
planting. These also work well ...Netafim has a new line of pop-in emitters,
C. N. L., stands for Compensating Non-Leaking which is a good idea if you
don't want to have to wait to "charge" your irrigation system each time you
run it. As to the overhead sprinkler and the "wetting cone" discussion ...I
would advise against it. Your objective is to provide the tree with water
and not the ground cover. I remember having the devil of a time mowing well
irrigated weeds out from underneath the laden branches of trees with the
sprinkler type system. If you install a dripperline directly in the tree
row, you need only spray a very narrow strip of Roundup centered directly
over the dripperline in the early spring and your trees won't suffer from
much weed competition. If you apply a narrow strip of bark mulch over your
dripperline and do some judicious hand weeding you can cut back on the number
of mice/voles you might experience (tree guards!). N.B. in very dry climes,
mice might snack on the dripperline...amazing what the things can get into.
The expert on this and other ground cover issues in tree crops would be Dr.
Ian Merwin at Cornell.
The tree has an amazing capacity to concentrate roots where there is water
and to "go look for it" when there is not. Over time the tree will adapt to
the irrigation situation it finds itself in. If you keep the irrigation
interval/amount geared toward what the tree "needs" your fruit won't suffer.
After harvest of course, you should cut down on your irrigation if not stop
it altogether and let the tree harden off for winter.
I can't tell you the number of times I have seen people spend heaps of money
finding and planting heirloom/cider apples and have neglected such a simple
thing as water. PLEASE put irrigation in early. There's nothing more sad
than seeing a third leaf tree that's 3 feet high with terminals shut down in
late spring!
- --
John A. Ray
Research Associate-Floriculture
Colorado State University
Department of Horticulture & Landscape Architecture
111 Shepardson Bldg
Fort Collins CO 80523-1173
970.491.4615 (Office)
970.491.1089 (Lab)
970.491.7745 (FAX)
------------------------------
Subject: K 2 ? ("K" cider mutates)
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:03:17 -0600 (MDT)
Apparently the "K" brand cider has been re-worked. I first noticed this
because I'd had some of it around, got a little more, and discovered that
the "new" bottles were not twist-off's! I'm guessing as to which is newer,
actually, since I can still find both variations by looking at different
stores. I'll call them "old" and "new" based on my assumption that there's
been a change which simply hasn't propagated to the stocks in all stores.
Both bottles have a black plastic over-wrap that covers everything except
the flat underside and the very top where the crown cap fits. Under this,
the old is clear glass twist-off; the new is brown-glass non-twist-off.
There's a distinct taste difference between the two. The old is lighter
and a bit sharper in taste. The new has a bit of a caramelized overtone.
(I don't like it a bit...it brings back a memory of when I made the mistake
of tasting Hornsby's.) The new is also a little softer and less interesting.
Ingredients look the same except for potassium sorbate in the old. The new
is slightly darker in color.
They are both imported from England and bottled in the US, but the old came
via Naples, NY; the newer via Madera, CA.
So, inasmuch as this has been described as a "designer beverage"...I wonder
if the designers are having us on or experimenting on us.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.
------------------------------
Subject: Cider in BC
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:06:15 -0700
David,
You could make a very nice trip from the city of Vancouver to Vancouver
Island via the BC ferry system leaving from Tsawwassen, BC and traveling
through the Gulf Islands to Sidney BC. Cobble Hill is about 45 minutes from
Sidney. For a return trip take the Washington State ferry from Sidney, BC to
Anacortes, WA through the San Juan Islands. The ferry stops at Friday
Harbor on San Juan Island where you can visit us at Westcott Bay Orchards.
We make a fine, full-bodied bittersweet cider which we distribute locally.
This is more than a day trip but well worth it; the Gulf Islands and the San
Juan Islands are beautiful gems on an inland sea. The weather at this time
of year is wonderful, dry and warm, balmy evenings with terrific sunsets.
This will give you a great taste of the US Pacific Northwest as well as
Vancouver Island. Drop us a line, if you decide to come this way.
Richard Anderson
Westcott Bay Orchards
Vintage Cider
------------------------------
Subject: New Cider Book
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:00:40 +0100
There's a great new cider book just out! It's called A Somerset Pomona
(ISBN 1 874336 87 3)and was written by Liz Copas who has been Cider
Pomologist at Long Ashton for the last 20 years. There are 20 or so
pages of interesting introduction about Somerset Cider Apples and their
use historically, and a bit about the latest UK cider revival, and then
80 individual apples described in detail with botanical, orcharding and
cider characteristics PLUS coloured plates of each. A great addition to
the cider literature at only UKP 9.95 plus shipping.
Published by the Dovecote Press in Dorset http://www.dovecotepress.com/
but not yet listed on their website.
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford UK
------------------------------
Subject: Ace Cider Geysers
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 10:40:24 +0100
Steve said:
> Also -- and I may be even more likely than usual to be wrong on this -- it
> seems to me that the character of a brew over-bubbly from bacterial infection
> is different from the character of one overcarbonated from conventional C02
> carbonation methods. The foam doesn't seem the same. I'm curious if anyone
> agrees/disagrees with this.
>
I agree. I think it may have two causes. One is the presence of large
numbers of actual physical bacteria or yeast (about 1 - 8 micron in
size, respectively) which act as nucleation sites for release of CO2.
The other is that spoilage bacteria and yeast excrete long-chain
polysaccharides (dextrans usually) into the drink and this often gives
much greater stability to the foam. The extreme example is yoghurt which
is 'set' by a dextran network excreted by the bacteria. This is also
relevant to champagne production and there has been quite a bit of
published scientific work on the topic (and probably lots more that Moet
and Chandon have not told us about!).
Andrew Lea, Oxford UK.
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Bottle Age
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:01:25 +0100
Dick raised a query recently about what is 'old' for a 'live' bottled
cider. I'm currently drinking mine from the 1998 apple crop and
enjoying it. Around 1 - 3 years post production seems to be pretty good
to me (a plateau of perfection?). I still have a few bottles of 96 and
95 production but I somehow feel they're slightly tired. If you bottle
in glass and there's even a few yeast cells there, I guess the desirable
reductive conditions stay for a pretty long time. Doesn't apply to
pasteurised commercial ciders in PET which I think begin to decline
noticeably after 6 months to 1 year.
Andrew Lea. nr Oxford, UK.
------------------------------
Subject: Vancouver thanks and Lyne Down info
From: "David Matthews" <Dave.Matthews7@btinternet.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:52:59 +0100
I am touched by the number of people who have taken the trouble to
contact me with advice on Vancouver cider, thanks to you all. It looks
like Merridale is the Drink of Champions, so I'll have to persuade the
family to go on a day trip to Vancouver Island.
Now, Dick has asked me to post up further details of the sale of Lyne
Down Cider, in Herefordshire, England. You may recall that the asking
price was four hundred thousand pounds sterling. Well, here goes:
Jean Nowell is now 71 (I hope that she isn't reading this!), and has
been making ultra-traditional award-winning cider and perry by hand for
many years now. This means picking by hand, using a hand-powered
twin-screw press, and so on. This is all great for quality, but no good
for ladies of Jean's age working chiefly on her own, so she has decided
to retire to a nearby cottage, and put the farm and cider business up
for sale. The price includes the farmhouse, all cider making equipment,
a traditional working forge, and 20 acres of land including (I think) 5
acres of standard orchards. On the old Twelfth Night she hosts a
fantastic Wassail, complete with torch lit procession and Morris Men.
Her annual output has been 1500 gallons, and I noticed that this raised
one or two eyebrows. This volume is the ceiling at which the cidermaker
does not pay any duty on cider. Cidermakers of this size are typically
farmers who see cider as just one strand of a multi-stream income. You
have to go way above 1500 gallons for it to become worthwhile paying
duty, so many just stay at that level.
If you are genuinely interested in buying Lyne Down, then contact Jean
by emailing her on j.nowell@ukonline.co.uk
One more thing, on the 20th June we formed the first ever 'Cymdeithas
Seidr Cymru' or 'Welsh Cider Association' to those of you who don't
speak Welsh. The provisional date for our first Cider Festival and Welsh
Cider Championships is 11th May 2002. At the meeting one of our members
described his small collection of ancient US cider apple varieties, "as
used by the Pilgrim Fathers"!
Best Wishes,
Dave Matthews
------------------------------
Subject: Stopping fermentation
From: David Pickering <davidp@netwit.net.au>
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:29:01 +1000
[Janitor's Note: David is passing along information sent him by Clayton
Cone. He obtained Cone's permission to publish it here.]
From: " Clayton Cone" <ccone@lallemand.com>
Subject: RE: Attention: George Clayton Cone
David,
I apologize in the delay in replying to your request for information. I
thought that I had replied but I cannot find the reply in my files.
My first choice for producing a sweet wine or cider would be to produce a
healthy fermentation and ferment to dryness, then allow to settle using a
settling aid such as Bentonite. Rack. Filter with a filter pad or DE
filter. then add back fresh juice or concentrate to achieve the desired
sweetness. Refilter. using a cartridge filter at 0.4 micron for sterile
filtration. Add 30 - 60 ppm SO2 and 75 -200 ppm Sorbate. The sorbate
addition depends on the alcohol level in the wine or cider. The lower the
alcohol (9% vs 14%) the higher the sorbate. The SO2 prevents the geranium
odor that could be produced by the Sorbate without SO2. Plus the SO2
prevents oxidation of the wine and spoilage bacteria.
If your preference to try to stop the fermentation at a desired sweetness,
then you must be able to rapidly chill the fermentation to below 40 F (5C).
If you cannot rapidly chill to below 40 F, then you need to add at least 60
ppm SO2 and a settling aid to slow the fermentation and settle the yeast
while you are cooling. It takes several trials to stop the fermentation at
your desired sweetness. Many people use this method. If you cannot chill
rapidly, you have to use lots of SO2. I believe that large amounts of SO2
detracts from the fruit and berry flavor.
Dry ice directly into the fermentation should rapidly cool your
fermentation.
I am going to give you Lallemand contacts in Australia. They will be able
to give you locations of winery supply houses that will have information on
the equipment that you need such as filters, filter pads, cartridges,
bentonite SO2, and Sorbate. The supply houses should give you the correct
filter pad porosity, bentonite preparation, SO2 and Sorbate additions.
Dr. Andrew Markides amarkide@senet.com.au
Graeme Anderson ganderson@lallemand.com
Tell them that I sent you.
Let me know if you need more information. Also let me know which method you
select and the results.
Clayton Cone
- -----Original Message-----
From: David Pickering [mailto:davidp@netwit.net.au]
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 4:37 AM
To: clayton_cone@lallemand.com
Subject: Attention: George Clayton Cone
Dear George,
I am using Lalvin QA23 in the fermentation of a number of blends of
(hard) cider, each blend consisting of true cider apples.
Having printed and read your cider article on the Lallemand website I am
asking for help in techniques to halt the fermentation prior to the
point of dryness. You mention this topic in paragraph 11 of Cider
Fermentation but I would appreciate additional information as to how
much SO2 per litre, from what chemical, and what filtering and
centrifuging equipment is available or can be brought into use for the
amateur cider maker?
David Pickering
"Linden Lea" Huntley Road, Orange NSW 2800, Australia
davidp@netwit.net.au
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #907
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