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Cider Digest #0891
Subject: Cider Digest #891, 22 February 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #891 22 February 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
re: Unfermented cider (Dick Dunn)
Nomenclature ("Preben B. Jensen")
Unfermented juice (Andrew Lea)
Raisins as a sugar source (Peter Matra)
Re: Malo-lactic fermentations (Terence L Bradshaw) (peter g)
Jaffrey Cider Press (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_=28aka_Dr=2E_Beer=AE=29=22?=)
A good winter to test variety hardiness (James.Luedtke@cgiusa.com)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: re: Unfermented cider
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:24:42 -0700 (MST)
"David A. Consolvo" <fruitopia@firstva.com> wrote:
> It's nice to see some discussion of unfermented cider...
The reason you've seen little, if any, discussion of unfermented cider is
that it's not really the topic of the digest. I'm not saying that as
janitor and I don't intend it to discourage discussion; I'm just pointing
it out.
It would be helpful to be careful about the terminology. Americans have
this unfortunate confusion in our language--deliberately inflicted on us by
prohibitionists--where we have two words for apple juice ("juice" and
"cider") but no single word for fermented apple juice. Pretty much the
rest of the world takes the single word "cider" (or cognates--"cidre" in
French, "sidra" in Spanish...) to mean "fermented apple juice". Saying
"sweet cider" helps, but only a little.
> - - A good name helps. Calling pure Gala cider "English Desert Cider"
> (because of its English's Cox's heritage and its sweetness), for example
> helped sell cider. The wonderful aroma of Gala didn't hurt either.
(I'd think "dessert" would be more appealing than "desert":-)
I suppose I'm not one to be arguing marketing, but I'm very much put off by
this idea...it stretches the truth far more than I like.
Your particular apples aren't English.
Gala (the variety) isn't English; it's from New Zealand.
Gala's parents (the varieties from which it was crossed) aren't English.
Nor have I ever seen or heard of a "des[s]ert cider", particularly English.
Moreover, when you mix "English" with "cider" you get back into the middle
of the terminology tangle I mentioned above.
So your label may benefit your juice, but I don't think it would pass legal
muster. More to the point, I don't think it will do any good for true
English cider.
> - - Contrary to modern lore, one variety can indeed make an excellent cider.
What "modern lore" is this? If you're referring to discussions here on
the Cider Digest, realize that they were about (hard) cider. Fermentation
uncovers a lot about the characteristics (and balance or lack of it) of
apples, since there's little or no sugar left to smooth it out. Juice is
an easier proposition, and I think there are many single varieties that
would make good juice (although I also think that traditional cider
varieties are not among them, with a few exceptions).
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.
------------------------------
Subject: Nomenclature
From: "Preben B. Jensen" <lesa@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:03:31 -0800
I can't help it, but terms like "unfermented cider" and "sweet cider" make
me wince.
I hope that the majority of readers would prefer to think of cider as only
the fermented product.Apple juice is a very appropriate and correct name
for the unfermented kind.
I am (perhaps unfortunately) a pedantic fool, and I apologize to the users
of these dis... labels.
Preben B Jensen
------------------------------
Subject: Unfermented juice
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:51:44 +0000
A few comments (from a UK perspective)on David Consolvo's remarks:
> It's nice to see some discussion of unfermented cider. I've long wondered,
> since classic cider varieties were used generally to make fermented cider,
> if they really have anything special or desirable to offer for unfermented
> cider.
General UK experience is that they don't. That's because our classic
cider varieties
are too unbalanced (lack of acid, too much tannin) to be very palatable
on their own. Though some of the sharps like Frederick, Stoke Red and
Kingston Black make a rich and interesting juice. A cultivar called
Reinette d'Obry (of which I have no experience myself) has been
recommended here in recent years as dual purpose juicing and sharp cider
apple.
The economics of UK apple production are such that juice can only be
made from 'cull' market fruit, not grown just for juicing.. But we do
see a trend towards high quality bottled juices from single cultivars
like Discovery, Cox, Egremont Russet. These are the most successful.
Bramley is too acidic unless pressed late in the following year and most
earlier fruit like Worcester Pearmain is too insipid in flavour.
>
> - - A good name helps. Calling pure Gala cider "English Desert Cider"
> (because of its English's Cox's heritage and its sweetness), for example
> helped sell cider. The wonderful aroma of Gala didn't hurt either.
Ironic because Gala is a New Zealand apple not a British one and its
parents are Kidds Orange (from NZ albeit with Cox parentage) and Golden
Delicious from West Virginia! UK Gala is too insipid to make a good
juice and has too much unripe Golden Delicious character in it for my
liking. But doubtless it finishes much better in US Zone 7 than it does
with us. [Also there are no deserts in the UK, (and certainly not after
this, the wettest winter on record!)!]
> - - The more Spartan I put in, the more people liked it.
That would fit with US taste perecptions where the red apple character
of ethyl 2-methyl butyrate is prized. Not necessarily so in UK and
Europe.
> - - Apples fully ripened on the tree make a tremendous difference.
I'll drink to that!!
> - - Despite having 16 varieties available for me to use, to many people's
> taste I NEVER had a cider with enough bite to it. I wonder if it needed
> more acids or more tannin? Or both?
The 'bite' thing is quite interesting and varies a lot across countries
and even within a country. The preferred sugar:acid ratio for apple
juice in UK and Northern Europe is about 15, rising to the 20's in the
North Eastern USA and allegedly to 30 in the Southern States. Certainly
most commercial US apple juice is unpleasantly sub-acid to a British
palate.
>
> Oh, and P.S. Pure sweet pear juice was to die for. I could never make
> enough to keep it in for more than an hour. Why is that not sold
> commercially? In Europe those thick juices of peach, apricot, or pear are
> just awesome.
Those products from central Europe are actually nectars, not juices, and
include comminuted fruit pulp and may contain added sugar (see
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/lif/dat/1993/en_393L0077.html). I think
that's why they work so well. Pure pear juice (no pulp), at least in
the UK, is the most insipid drink you can imagine - bland, sweet and
sub-acid. But again, fruit finished in US Zone 7 is very different from
what we're used to in Northern Europe!
Andrew Lea
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Raisins as a sugar source
From: Peter Matra <petermatra@mobile.att.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:28:50 -0500
Can't you just to a S.G. reading before and after?
the only thing I can see happening is that the after is going to have to be
in intervals as the sugar goes into the solution....
does this make sense?!
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Malo-lactic fermentations (Terence L Bradshaw)
From: peter g <peter.g@telus.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:51:54 -0800
Hi folks,
found this page, at the Lallemand website.
they culture Lalvin & Danstar yeasts.
The Use of Yeast in Cider Production
By George Clayton Cone
with interesting comments about the heat of fermentation, stirring
during fermentation, and malolactic fermentation inoculation.
as well he makes suggestions for making a sweet vs. dry cider.
( most of this is near the bottom 1/2 of the article )
http://www.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/InFerment/Cider.html
oddly enough, though employed by Lallemand, he makes no firm
recommendation as to which of their many yeasts is good for cider
making ! ( although other pages on that web do )
back to "lurk-mode" ...
peter g
------------------------------
Subject: Jaffrey Cider Press
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_=28aka_Dr=2E_Beer=AE=29=22?= <drbeer@doctorbee
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:19:21 -0500
they make a nice unit priced at $500 +/- $40 that includes both a hand
crank chopper positioned over the press, and a large size press with
optional wheels on it that could be used outdoors, hosed off and stored in
a garage or shed.
I'm interested in it and was wondering if anyone has any experience with
this or other Jaffrey Cider presses
Thanks,
Jay H. (original founder of cider digest, and long time lurker since the
fantastic Dick Dunn took over)
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts
------------------------------
Subject: A good winter to test variety hardiness
From: James.Luedtke@cgiusa.com
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:16:55 -0500
After 3 mild winters, here in Minnesota we are finally having a relatively
normal range of winter temperatures. In my neighborhood the lowest observed
temperature was -20F (Christmas Eve). We have had many forays below zero F
since then, but none as low, and no severe temperature swings which are so
hard on woody plants. However, this part of the state is considered to be
USDA Zone 4a, so a true 'test winter' would have temps going down to 25-30
below 0 F.
In the past two years, I have planted Yarlington Mill, Tom Putt, Foxwhelp,
Harry Masters Jersey, Dymock Red, Bulmers Norman, Breakswell Seedling and
Michelin. It should interesting so see which varieties/rootstock
combinations survive and thrive. This spring I plan to put in Chisel Jersey
and Muscadet De Dieppe. Hopefully at least 2-3 varieties will turn out to be
hardy enough for this area.
By the way, I selected varieties based on Claude Jolicoeur's hardiness
notes, the Wescott Bay Orchard web site, and Andrew Lea's 'vintage'
recommendations. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with the digest.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #891
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