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Cider Digest #0890
Subject: Cider Digest #890, 16 February 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #890 16 February 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Unfermented cider ("David A. Consolvo")
Orchard (The Lambourn Valley Cider Company)
Raisins as a sugar source (Terence L Bradshaw)
RE: Cider Digest #888, 1 February 2001 ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
tannin for perry ("Always and Ortiz")
Malo-lactic fermentations (Terence L Bradshaw)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Unfermented cider
From: "David A. Consolvo" <fruitopia@firstva.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:20:11 -0500
It's nice to see some discussion of unfermented cider. I've long wondered,
since classic cider varieties were used generally to make fermented cider,
if they really have anything special or desirable to offer for unfermented
cider. Anyone with experience in this arena? I want to plant more cider
trees, and am trying to decide what to plant.
I had 16 varieties of apples available to me when I had a small business
selling unfermented cider at a farmers' market, but none of the classic
English bitter or sharp varieties. Every Saturday morning in the fall I
would have three different ciders available for people to try. Here are
some of my obversations:
- - A good name helps. Calling pure Gala cider "English Desert Cider"
(because of its English's Cox's heritage and its sweetness), for example
helped sell cider. The wonderful aroma of Gala didn't hurt either.
- - The more Spartan I put in, the more people liked it.
- - Grimes Golden had a nice cinnamon-ny taste in the cider which I did not
note in the fresh apple.
- - Apples fully ripened on the tree make a tremendous difference.
- - Though I love to eat (Red) Delicious when fully tree ripened, it made
lousy cider.
- - Contrary to modern lore, one variety can indeed make an excellent cider.
- - I sold pure Albemarle Pippin (Newton Pippin) unfermented cider for $6.00
a gallon. Wholesale! I can't tell you how many people said that was the
best cider they'd ever had.
- - Despite having 16 varieties available for me to use, to many people's
taste I NEVER had a cider with enough bite to it. I wonder if it needed
more acids or more tannin? Or both?
- - People can appreciate and in fact become quite enthusiastic about
different types of unfermented ciders. I charged more for my cider than
anyone else at the market, yet sold more cider than the several other
vendors put together.
David Consolvo
Hungrytown, Virginia
Zone 7
Oh, and P.S. Pure sweet pear juice was to die for. I could never make
enough to keep it in for more than an hour. Why is that not sold
commercially? In Europe those thick juices of peach, apricot, or pear are
just awesome.
- -
------------------------------
Subject: Orchard
From: The Lambourn Valley Cider Company <lvcider@westberks.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:09:44 +0000
In message , Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au writes
>
>Congratulations are in order for Roy Bailey (and his daughter Alice) for taking
>a long term view and establishing a new cider and perry orchard. Well done!
>When
>will we see some piccies on the Lambourn Valley Cider Web site?
Ah, good question! We are both so busy at present; I'm planting trees
and Alice is still studying for her 'A' level exams at 6th form, so we
have little or no time to update the web site. But that is a priority,
and I will let you know when there is anything to see.
I have bought 30 Kingston Black saplings, which was all the grower had,
but I also have some rootstock and some cuttings so I shall be doing my
own grafting. Once the wounds on my hands have healed ... :-)
Roy.
- --
Roy Bailey - Proprietor
The Lambourn Valley Cider Company
(Real cider from the Royal County)
<info@lambournvalleycider.co.uk>
------------------------------
Subject: Raisins as a sugar source
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@quest-net.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:29:03 -0500
I recently added 15 lbs of flame raisins (organic, unsulfited) to my
fermenting barrel of cider (~53 gallons) in order to push the sugars up,
add some extra yeasts, and increase the body a little. I have added
raisins in the past and had excellent results, but this year I am trying
to be a little better about my note-taking. And there comes my question:
how can I get a rough idea of how much fermentable sugar I added with the
raisins? And does anyone else on this list use them? And while we're at
it, is anyone around here anymore?
Thanks in advance,
Terry B
Terence Bradshaw Pomona Tree Fruit Service
93 Stowe St PO Box 258, Chelsea, VT 05038
Waterbury, VT 05676 madshaw@quest-net.com
(802)244-0953
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #888, 1 February 2001
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:31:09 -0800
After reading Diane's request for ideas regarding traditional cider apples
and the responses from the following Digest my thoughts are as follows. Try
it. You have little to loose, if the trees do not work out, top graft over
them with something else. Kingston Black is a good bittersharp, its only
drawback is it is a poor producer. Varieties like Yarlington Mill and
Dabinett are productive bittersweets, the juice is a wonderful, thick,
tannin rich and would add body and spice to either a sweet or hard cider.
The Sweet Chopin's have little acid or tannin, but some think they add to
that "vintage" character. Our Foxwelps will come on next year, so I cannot
comment on them. The other varieties you mention are fine for acid and
aroma. When shopping for blenders we prefer Cox or anything with a Cox
parent(Elstar and Melrose for example).
Consider this, making a craft cider is as much of a art as a science. It
differs from making a wine, where you plant a block of a given variety and
work to achieve the level of excellence you want or can given the quality of
fruit. With cider, you are most likely to blend, the decision to use a
commercial yeast is yours to make etc. Given the unique terrene, you apples
will be, well your apples, grow them well.
Regarding what "American" taste is, look at television and decide. For the
most part commercial cider is not made by people who are interested in
making cider per se. A fair amount of it made by producers who want to put
idle wine making equipment to work and produce a drink much like a wine
cooler from whatever apple or apple concentrate that can obtain at the least
cost. They may not make a lot of money from it but they have the equipment,
marketing and distribution in place, so why not if it adds to the bottom
line. This fine, if the important thing is the bottom line. However if you
want to lead instead of follow, produce good fruit, produce a good, sound
drinkable cider. Instead of trying to make a cider which is like "Woodchuck"
or "French" or "English" , make good cider and build a market for it. Not a
easy task.
------------------------------
Subject: tannin for perry
From: "Always and Ortiz" <Altiz@rightathome.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:34:09 -0800
I have made cider for many years but am only now making a perry. I am a
pear orchardist in the Wenatchee Valley of central Washington state, and
obtained Bosc pears from a local fruit packing shed. I ripened them to
the firm ripe stage and crushed them. The juice was fragrant and sweet
... and quite lacking in acidity and tannin. I added tartaric acid at 2
tp/gal, and grape tannin at 0.75 tp/gal, along with some yeast nutrient
and pectinase. Fermentation has been at ca. 55F, accomplished with
"Blanc des Blancs" wine yeast (slow fermenter, supposed to preserve
fruity aromas).
My question; how much tannin might be best with such low tannin fruit as
dessert pears? With the above amount of tannin added, the juice
definitely has more bite, but I cannot tell whether that will be
adequate in the finished perry. For cider, I've used 15-20% Manchurian
crab apple juice for tannin, with good results, blended with Newtown
Pippin, Jonagold and assorted others.
Ted Alway
Peshastin, WA
------------------------------
Subject: Malo-lactic fermentations
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@quest-net.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:32:57 -0500
What are the thoughts from the group regarding the addition of MLF bacteria
to a bulk cider undergoing aging?
Thanks in advance.
Terry B
====================================================================
Terence Bradshaw Pomona Tree Fruit Service
93 Stowe St PO Box 258, Chelsea, VT 05038
Waterbury, VT 05676 madshaw@quest-net.com
(802)244-0953
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #890
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