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Cider Digest #0918
Subject: Cider Digest #918, 13 September 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #918 13 September 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #917, 6 September 2001 ("Jean Michel")
Re: Cider Digest #917, 6 September 2001 ("Reynold Tomes")
Perry challenge (Tim Bray)
Re: Perry challenge (Claude Jolicoeur)
Correction! (Marc Montefusco)
Cider Press Racks (Rcapshew@aol.com)
perry (Bob and Winnie)
absolutely amazing apples (Dick Dunn)
western ciders ("Benjamin Watson")
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #917, 6 September 2001
From: "Jean Michel" <cptnlyur@wnclink.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:35:09 -0500
Dear list,
this is Jean Michel, French Journalist, residing in the US (NC).
I am about to write articles about hard apple cider (both with alcoohol and
without)
I would like to mention some of you cider makers.
So could you contact me in order that I could taste it, to see if it is the
same result as our French hard cider ? (which is quite "brut" like
Champagne)
Thank you for your cooperation.
Jean Michel
cptnlyur@wnclink.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #917, 6 September 2001
From: "Reynold Tomes" <rtomes@burnsmcd.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:13:19 -0500
Re: In your opinion what the best dry or liquid yeast out there to make =
good ole
New England style cider?
A few years ago, Canadian Greg Appleyard used several different varieties
of yeasts to ferment the same apple juice blend and then rated the yeasts
based on taste tests by friends. He published the results on the
internet. Here's the link...http://hbd.org/brewery/library/CidYeast091595.
html. Greg also experimented with blending the juice of different apple
varieties in Ontario and came up with this formula for a well-balanced
cider: Golden Russett - 60%; Jersey Mac - 15%; Northern Spy - 15%; and
Paula Red - 10%. This is also on the web; the link is http://mars.ark.com/
~squeeze/vars-cdn.html. Last year, we tried several yeast types for our
regular cider here in western Missouri (S.G. 1.052 with no additional
sugar added). The yeast producing the best tasting cider was a tie
between Lalvin EC-1118B (champagne) and natural yeasts in completely
unpreserved juice (no sulfites, pasteurization, sorbates, etc.). For what
it's worth..
Regards,
Reynold Tomes
------------------------------
Subject: Perry challenge
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 11:07:23 -0700
We actually pressed some juice from Bartlett(?) pears a couple of years
ago. We used ripe pears but did not grind them - just chopped them up by
hand. Many of them were so ripe that we just squeezed them into
chunks. All this went into a pressing bag and then was pressed with a wine
press, which did not work all that well but gave us pretty good juice anyway.
If I was to do this again, I'd use fully-ripe pears, chop them up by hand
into chunks (maybe use one of those apple corer-slicer things?), and then
press in thin cheeses with really fine cloths, like muslin.
We never did ferment that juice - would be interested to hear how yours
turns out.
Cheers,
Tim
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Perry challenge
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 14:35:56 -0400
At 10:39 01.09.06 -0600, you wrote in Cider Digest #917 :
>Subject: Perry challenge
>From: "Always and Ortiz" <Altiz@rightathome.com>
>
>I'm hoping to make a perry this fall that captures the fine fragrance
>that Bartlett (Williams) pears have.
> d.. Find and use a different pressing method?
You could maybe try freezing. I use this method with overripe apples that
are very difficult to grind and it works well.
Freeze the ripe pears in a large freezer for a week, take them out, let
thaw about 20-24 hours and press - DO NOT ATTEMPT TO GRIND -
I haven't tried this with pears, but I think it might be worth a try. Let
us know how it works if you try...
With apples I usually get even better yields from overripe frozen apples
than with sound grinded fruit. However, the juice takes longer to flow out
(an hour or more). Apply the pressure gently at the beginning.
Another good point of this method is that one can press when the fruit is
still partly frozen - The yield is poor, but the sugar content is increased
and it is possible to make an "Ice Cider" a bit like Ice wine.
Claude Jolicoeur, Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: Correction!
From: Marc Montefusco <mmontefusco@newworldcider.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 15:34:19 -0400
In a recent post, I asked a question about "Southworth" -- it should
have been "Southmeadow." My apologies to the list, and to Southworth
Fruit Gardens, if there is such a thing.
Marc Montefusco
New World Cider
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Press Racks
From: Rcapshew@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:11:50 EDT
The traditional cider basket presses do not have
racks between the cheeses of pomace however
most plans for large presses include wooden
racks. What purpose do the racks serve? Is
it merely to keep the juice from draining into the
next cheese? Would a rack between the cheeses
in a traditional home cider press improve the
efficiency of the press? Polyethylene
(cutting board material) is easy to cut to fit,
fairly inexpensive and easy to sanitize.
Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
Bob Capshew
Southern Indiana
------------------------------
Subject: perry
From: Bob and Winnie <natvwine@cut.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:20:09 -0600
> Greetings,
>
My name is Bob and I am a professional vintner/winery owner in the
western US. One of the most popular wines I make is a pear wine that is
not in any way bland. It is full bodied, almost dry, unfiltered,
unsulfited and very rich. It is made from Bartlett type pears that grow
locally. The secrets to our success are as follows:
When you crush a juice and then ferment the juice, you are making a
"white" wine. This will always be more bland than if you ferment on the
fruit, it will also not age as well. At our winery we carefully ripen
the pears in batches and pitch them into the mash after cleaning and
maceration. As long as the fermentation is vigorous, there is minimal
danger of infection or other problems. Sometimes this initial process
will last for a couple of weeks until all or most of the pears are used.
When you ferment on the fruit, you are producing a heartier
wine/perry than just the juice. It will contain many healthful and
necessary components for the proper ageing and balance of the wine; one
of these components being tannin.
After the initial fermentaion is over (judgement call here), strain
the must with a nylon bag and put into a carboy or a barrel. Sometimes
if I am in a bind for time, I will let the must settle for a day or so,
so that the fruit pulp (brun) goes to the top and then siphon the young
wine from underneath it into the secondary vessel. We use (older)
French Oak barrels for the pear wine as the subtle oakiness is very
complimentery to the richness of this wine. Since there seems to be a
modern paranoia about lees, you may want to rack as often as you feel
necessary, but everything here is made "sur lees" and in fact I bottle
directly out of the barrel to the finish bottle.
Very simply, do not press anything or attempt to separate the juice
as this is a complicated and risky process. Merely wash, sort and crush
the fruit, ferment in a suitable vessel, and then age properly (at least
a year).
Best regards, Bob Sorenson, Native Wines
> From: "Always and Ortiz"
> Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:10:04 -0700
>
> I'm hoping to make a perry this fall that captures the fine fragrance
> that Bartlett (Williams) pears have. This is a dessert pear; fermented
> alone it makes a very bland drink more similar to sparkling water than
> cider. I plan to blend in 10-20% Dolgo crab apple juice, and add
> tartaric acid and perhaps additional tannin. My challenge is this: the
> full flavor/aroma of pears develops with ripening, When nicely ripe,
> the pears will become mush in a typical apple cider grinder and press,
> not allowing separation of the juice from the pulp. Crushing/pressing
> when still firm will occur before full flavor development, sacrificing
> the quality of the finished product. I'm interested in suggestions from
> forum participants on how best to do this.
> a.. Ferment a mash of ripe pear pulp, then attempt separating the
> juice?
> b.. Crush/press early in the ripening process?
> c.. Mix a firmer material with the ripe pear pulp (apples? straw?!)
> to allow the juice to flow out?
> d.. Find and use a different pressing method?
>
>
------------------------------
Subject: absolutely amazing apples
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:06:32 -0600 (MDT)
Imagine if you could crush and press apples, and ferment the juice to over
10% alcohol! Wouldn't that be amazing? If you've ever made your cider in
one of those "off" years when the weather cooled off too soon and the apples
didn't quite ripen...and you ended up wondering if you'd be able to make it
even to 5% or so for the sake of preservation...can't you imagine the
benefit of being able to ferment some juice to an amazing alcohol level?
Well, apparently there are such apples, available to commercial cider
producers in the UK. From the "Q&A" section at the web site for "K" Cider
(www.kcider.com) we find that "...ripe and juicy apples are crushed and
fermented to a 12.5% alcohol level..."
I think one might understand if a skeptical person suggested that there
might be something more than apple juice used to achieve that level of
alcohol.
OK, enough kidding around. 12.5% corresponds to a starting gravity of
around 1.100, and I just don't think you're going to find apples like that.
Now, it would be possible to concentrate the juice up to that level of
sugar, but the taste of K cider doesn't support that conjecture either.
Could they, perhaps, be adding just a bit of sugar to boost the starting
gravity before fermentation? Just a tiny bit...like maybe 60% or more of
the fermentable sugars?
The ingredient label isn't an awful lot of help, since the first ingredient
is listed as "hard cider". Let's see...hard cider is made from hard cider
and other ingredients. ("circular definition: see definition, circular":-)
And by the way, I don't mean to single out K on this point. Most large-
scale commercial ciders are fermented from a combination of apple juice,
sugar, and water. Some ingredient lists are less disingenuous than that
of K; they'll come right out and say fermented apple juice, sugars, water...
What we're getting, under this label "cider", is part cider (not even
necessarily the main part) with a lot of fermented sugar-water. The result
is somewhat cider-like, but the point is to make an alcoholic beverage,
with the cider being almost incidental.
Dick
------------------------------
Subject: western ciders
From: "Benjamin Watson" <bwatson@mcttelecom.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 09:27:46 -0400
If anyone on this list can recommend some well-made ciders produced in the
western US or western Canada, I would appreciate your input.
I have just been asked to lead a cider and cheese seminar in San Francisco
on January 21, and the organizers would like to emphasize western ciders. I
am familiar with Alan Foster's White Oak Cider in Oregon, and Vashon Island
Winery in Washington, and have just learned about Merridale Estate Cidery on
Vancouver Island in B.C. That may be enough. But all the rest of the western
ciders I'm familiar with are sweet, fizzy draft style (Ace, Spire Mountain,
etc.) and not right for this type of event.
Specifically, I'm looking for traditional/artisanal cidermakers whom I can
contact and request samples for a "pretasting" this fall before making final
selections for this "Fancy Food" event. It should be a great promotional
opportunity for the cidermakers.
Feel free to pass along any recommendations to me off-list, though I suspect
others on the list would be interested in hearing of worthy ciders made in
the West.
Just as a postscript, I will also be doing a similar "taste workshop" at
Slow Food's "Cheese 2001" festival later this month in Bra, Italy, along
with Peter Kindel of Artisanal Restaurant in NYC. The American delegation is
shipping two tons of cheeses, and we've included six excellent US ciders,
from White Oak Cider (OR), West County Winery (MA), and Farnum Hill Ciders
(NH). I am very curious to see what kind of reaction there is to cider in
Italy, and will send in a brief report when I return.
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End of Cider Digest #918
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