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Cider Digest #0919
Subject: Cider Digest #919, 18 September 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #919 18 September 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider press racks (Marc Montefusco)
Pressing Apples outside Washington, DC (John DeCarlo)
Fermenting "on the grind" (jar18)
Various comments (Andrew Lea)
Cold-hardy varieties and rootstocks (James.Luedtke@cgiusa.com)
malic acid v. tartaric acid (David Daly)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider press racks
From: Marc Montefusco <mmontefusco@newworldcider.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:06:27 -0400
Bob Capshew asked about the relative efficiency of using a
rack-and-cloth cheese in a traditional barrel press. I tried this
season using cut-down wooden racks from a large press in a barrel press,
and came to the following conclusions:
1. Building the cheese is awkward and messy in the confined space under
the grinder.
2. The grinder tends to strew pomace everywhere but the center of the
cloth.
3. The rotational action of the screw tends to skew the cheese.
4. A square pad must be made to replace the usual circular pressure
pad.
5. The final results are no more efficient than using the barrel with a
suitable cloth lining.
6. Clean-up was even worse than usual.
In larger presses, I believe that the rack-and-cloth system does allow
more even distribution of pressure and more efficient juice extraction,
but the advantages of using this system in a traditional barrel press
are slim to non-existent. Hope this helps.
Marc Montefusco
New World Cider
------------------------------
Subject: Pressing Apples outside Washington, DC
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo@mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:10:55 -0400
Hello,
I was talking to an acquaintance last week and he said he has a farm
outside Washington, DC that has an orchard, with lots of older styles of
apples (he said I wouldn't recognize any of the names).
He said he mostly just eats the apples, since this isn't something
commercial, but had thought about making cider.
So, I thought I would ask for advice from this list. Should I point him
towards directions for making his own cider press? Should he look
around for someone else locally that has a cider press he could borrow
for some barter/fee?
Thanks for any advice.
- --
John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own
email: jdecarlo@mitre.org
voice: 703-883-7116
fax: 703-883-3383
------------------------------
Subject: Fermenting "on the grind"
From: jar18 <jar18@lamar.colostate.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:09:14 -0600
Pursuant to some of the previous discussions;
I'm curious to know what is the ratio of cidermakers out there that press
BEFORE fermenting as opposed to after? I've started 6-5 gallon batches of
cider this fall and only one has been from pressed juice. The first batch,
fermented on the grind, started on 8/16 has finished it's primary and was
squeezed through cheesecloth with an incredible juice yield. I've found that
the cider is more full bodied with greater aroma than that from pressed fruit.
I know that fermenting on the skin might give rise to a more acetic product
if fermentation doesn't "roil" soon enough. I try to ferment as cool and slow
as possible because I don't like to "blow off" all of the apple aroma in the
mash (that's hillbilly bootleg moonshine talk for ground apples). I was
interested to read that some perry makers have experienced a longer lasting
product by fermenting prior to pressing. Is there a corrolary in cidermaking?
Does anyone know how much tannin is found in the skin of apples...or the
seed...I'm sure I have references which would tell me but, alas, I'm just
lazy.
John Ray
------------------------------
Subject: Various comments
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:38:33 +0100
Concerning yeast. In recent years I've moved away from all commercial
yeasts and now use the natural inoculum that floats around and lives on
my press kit from year to year. I use about half the 'recommended'
level of SO2 for the pH specifically to encourage some non-Saccharomyces
strains without running the risk of rip-roaring acetification! The lag
phase may be a couple of weeks though. Such fermentations are slower and
easier to control than the inoculated ones if you want to rack to retain
some natural sweetness and 'condition' as I do. This style of
cidermaking is close to what's described in John Evelyn's 17th century
'Pomona' (including the use of sulphur candles!). It works for me and
it may work for you - try it!!
Concerning the retention of pear (or apple) aroma in cidermaking. I
never tasted a cider or perry that really has the original flavour of
the fruit it comes from. The received wisdom (which I pretty much agree
with) is that all the native fruit volatile flavours are driven off
during fermentation, and are replaced by new volatiles synthesised by
the yeast from the fruit substrate. It's just good fortune if any of
these happen to be the same as those in the original fruit - mostly
they're not. There have been some very fruity estery ciders and perries
on the market but as far as I know they've all had essence added after
fermentation to get that way (and is illegal in the UK, incidentally)!
Concerning racks. I think any engineer (I'm not one) would tell you
that the maximum extraction and drainage efficiency for dewatering under
pressure is obtained in a series of shallow layers. That's why racks
(and formerly straw) are used. The basket presses are really for
grapes, not apples, and it seems to me that the structure and nature of
grape skins allows them to act as mini racks and drainage points in
their own right - and the capillary forces retaining the juice within
the pulp are much less for grape than apple. Hence no racks are needed
for that application. Would be truly interesting to know if PE racks
inside a basket press improve its efficiency for apples - the racks
would have to be perforated and grooved though, to act as drainage
conduits to the outside of the press.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Cold-hardy varieties and rootstocks
From: James.Luedtke@cgiusa.com
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:25:58 -0400
It's been a few months since I've written, so a bit of background.
My small orchard (back yard, really), is outside Minneapolis, Minnesota,
smack in the middle of USDA Hardiness Zone 4. I am trying out different
cider varieties and rootstocks with the hope that a couple of each
bittersweets and bittersharps on some of the newer dwarfing rootstocks will
prove reliably hardy here.
Well, last winter was fairly cold, down to at least -20F, plus we had
several icestorms. Quite a few of my young trees died back to about 1 foot
above the ground (snow protected the lower portion). Most of these were on
B9 rootstocks. Both P2 and seedling rootstocks faired better than the B9.
Last spring, before damage was evident, I obtained 30 B9 rootstocks on which
most of this year's grafting was completed. After seeing how B9 performed
through the winter, I have small faith in it here for the long term. I
anticipate offering 15 to 20 of them at cost to subscribers, though I will
have to check regulations before actually doing this. The varieties are a
mix of Chisel Jersey, Yarlington Mill, Stoke Red, and a couple of others.
On the bright side, the varities that died back on the dwarfing rootstocks
came through just fine where they were topworked onto known hardy varities.
This year I even had my first fruit from Bulmers Norman and Michelin - 3
total apples! Not quite enough for a batch of cider, but it's a start.
------------------------------
Subject: malic acid v. tartaric acid
From: David Daly <great_pumpkin74@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:11:27 -0700 (PDT)
Hello everyone. I'm a novice home cidermaker in
Massachusetts, and I recently purchased an
acid-testing kit at my local homebrew supply store.
Excited that I would now be able to have some
empirical evidence about the amount of malic acid in
my must (I recently made a cider that could definitely
have used a pick-me-up)I opened my kit only to find
that the test only indicated amounts of tartaric acid.
I've been hunting around for a conversion table or
formula, but have yet to find one. If any of the
veteran cidermakers could steer me in the right
direction, I'd be much obliged. Thank you for your
help, and my thoughts and prayers go out to any of you
who may have been touched by the recent tragedy.
Sincerely,
Dave Daly
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #919
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