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Cider Digest #0944
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: cider-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: cider@talisman.com
To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #944, 19 January 2002
Cider Digest #944 19 January 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Scionwood/cider &heritage apples/Eastern Canada (=?iso-8859-1?q?Martin=20P...)
Various answers (Andrew Lea)
A Canadian Source for Pears ("Martin Donald")
Re: Stuck Cider (Terence L Bradshaw)
Re: White mold, (Terence L Bradshaw)
Tasting results (Terence L Bradshaw)
White mold ("Kristopher K. Barrett")
Stuck Cider ("DFT") ("gmarion.dri.edu")
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Subject: Scionwood/cider &heritage apples/Eastern Canada
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Martin=20Par=E9?= <vitiqc@yahoo.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:44:05 +0100 (CET)
Hello all,
I am new to the list - a member of the Growwine list
refered your list as a good place to talk cicer and
apples.
I am looking for scionwood to graft this winter,
namely Roxbury Russet, Ribston Pippin, Yarlington Mill
and "Pomme grise", from a source in Canada. Any
suggestion as to other cider apples that would grow in
the Eastern townships of Quebec a zone 4)?
Apparently, Yarlington has survived the terrible
1980-81 winter in St.Jean, but I do not know about the
other cider apples.
I found some nurseries to carry them, but I want to
graft on some real dwarfing rootstock so I need my own
scionwood.
Sincerely,
Martin Pare,
Eastern Townships, Quebec, Canada
------------------------------
Subject: Various answers
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 22:03:21 +0000
> to my
> dismay find the very small head space covered with a layer of this same
> white mold!
>
> What should I do? Can I save this batch or is this destined for
> "dewatering" or worse...drain flushing (I need clarification on the
> reference/connection to sex).
>
Sounds like a film yeast. It will only grow in the presence of air. If
you rack and bottle the cider it shouldn't re-form in bottle, but you
could add sulphite to be quite sure. In future, use a good air lock at
all times and maybe use sulphite when fermenting too. Film yeasts can be
tolerated in small amounts but they tend to destroy flavour if allowed
to proceed unchecked. Sulphite will knock 'em out.
> The cider is pasteurized and
> contains a small amount of potassium sorbate.
>
> Any suggestions as to why my fermentation is not proceeding?
>
Almost certainly the sorbate is the culprit. This is added to the juice
as a yeast inhibitor and is obviously doing its job! Sulphite will also
synergise its effect.
> A month ago, it was clear.
> Now it's still clear near the bottom, but cloudy in the top two thirds
> - -- pretty sharply stratified.
>
Curious!! If it's cloudy at the top it almost sounds like it's got a
bacterial infection and is going acetic where it can get at the air.
Does it smell vinegary? Otherwise has it got very cold at all, which
might either stratify it and/or shock out a haze? Or perhaps you've
added too much Sparkalloid? It is possible to overfine and create new
hazes!
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: A Canadian Source for Pears
From: "Martin Donald" <martin.donald@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:23:49 -0500
My family and I have a 100 acre farm in Central Ontario (zone 5b)
Canada. We have a couple of dozen apple trees which would have been
bearing fruit this year had they not been so badly attacked by rabbits
and deer last winter. They are coming back but this year I made cider
from bought apple juice. It is still fermenting slowly.
We have 3 pear trees which seem unaffected by many of the diseases which
mar the apples. After reading an article in Zymurgy about perry, I
thought that perhaps pear trees would be the way to go. The next
problem is where to find a source for varieties of pear trees suitable
for perry. Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Martin
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Stuck Cider
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:27:20 -0500
>I am using apple cider purchased from a local orchard ( a blend of Fuju,
>Limbertwig, Stayman, and Pink Lady ). The cider is pasteurized and
>contains a small amount of potassium sorbate....etc...
There lies your problem. Pasteurized cider is fine to ferment with, and
sulfites can certainly be used in the process. Potassium sorbate, however,
will not allow your cider to ferment.
TB
------------------------------
Subject: Re: White mold,
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:25:08 -0500
>Subject: White mold
>From: "John A. Ray" <jar18@lamar.colostate.edu>
>...Two of the varieties I
>made cider from yielded less than a 5 gallon carboy's worth and after
>the pressing and residual primary completed its course, the process
>"stuck" and after a week a thin layer of white mold began to form! I
>did a little reading and learned that having a large head space volume
>can be one of the factors causing this. I mixed together the two small
>batches into a 6.5 gallon carboy, added two cups of cane sugar and some
>sulfite (50 - 75 ppm) and after a few days the fermentation took off
>again. I recently (three weeks ago) racked off the lees a nicely
>cleared amber colored cider with good aroma back into a 5 gallon carboy.
> Now, ready with sterile bottles, I get ready to pull this carboy out of
>it's nice cool cave (under the steps in the laundry room) and to my
>dismay find the very small head space covered with a layer of this same
>white mold!
I have had this occur before, particularly when I "oaked" a cider by adding
a handful of oak chips to the nearly finished product for bulk
aging. Although I steamed the chips in hope of sterilizing/sanitizing, it
appears that some creepy-crawly got through. This happened with two
batches. I carefully racked the cider at battling time to another clean
carboy, leaving the floating mold behind. This is done easiest by using a
small diameter racking cane that will not "stir up" the cider as it's
racked. I the added 50 ppm of sulfite and bottled. This is the only time
I have ever sulfited at bottling. One carboy was bottled into corked wine
bottles, the other kegged. Both are gone now, so I don't know how they
would stand up to the test of time. Your best bet may be to bottle with
sufite and drink it soon or give it to friends. Mine tasted great, by the
way, possibly the best batch I've ever done.
>What should I do? Can I save this batch or is this destined for
>"dewatering" or worse...drain flushing (I need clarification on the
>reference/connection to sex).
Drain flushing to me means what it says...dumping it down the drain. Some
may make some connection to 'releasing the swim team,' though
My $0.02
TB
====================================================================
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service
93 Stowe St
Waterbury, VT 05676
(802)244-0953
madshaw@innevi.com
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
------------------------------
Subject: Tasting results
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:32:26 -0500
Last Friday night I participated in a cider tasting where we sampled some
20 ciders, both commercial and homemade. Of the ciders, all were what I
would call "real" cider, i.e. no Bulmer's products or the like were
offered. The results were a little bit surprising in some respects, yet
not so in others. I plan to do a full report soon to offer to the digest,
but until then, allow me to suggest to any cider makers out there with
commercial aspirations that a bone-dry, super tannic, classic English cider
may not be the product to offer the American palate, even one experienced
with cider.
Expect the results to be posted before long...
TB
====================================================================
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service
93 Stowe St
Waterbury, VT 05676
(802)244-0953
madshaw@innevi.com
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
------------------------------
Subject: White mold
From: "Kristopher K. Barrett" <threejaguar@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 09:33:29 -0800
On 13 Jan 2002 at 11:16, cider-request@talisman.com wrote:
> Now, ready with sterile bottles, I get ready to pull this carboy out of
> it's nice cool cave (under the steps in the laundry room) and to my
> dismay find the very small head space covered with a layer of this same
> white mold!
>
> What should I do? Can I save this batch or is this destined for
> "dewatering" or worse...drain flushing (I need clarification on the
> reference/connection to sex).
Methinks your must itself is infected. Either flush it, or pasteurize or
filter it, and re-inoculate with a desirable yeast strain.
Do you have a bottle of something not infected with mold to culture good wild
yeast from?
- --
Regards,
Kristopher Barrett
------------------------------
Subject: Stuck Cider ("DFT")
From: "gmarion.dri.edu" <gmarion@dri.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:30:27 -0800
Your problem is probably due to potassium sorbate, which is a
preservative that prevents yeast reproduction. I don't know how to
correct the problem other than to start over with sweet cider that does
not contain potassium sorbate.
- --
Dr. Giles M. Marion
Earth and Ecosystem Sciences
Desert Research Institute 775-673-7349 (phone)
2215 Raggio Parkway 775-673-7485 (fax)
Reno, NV 89512 gmarion@dri.edu
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #944
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