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Cider Digest #0942
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: cider-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: cider@talisman.com
To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #942, 6 January 2002
Cider Digest #942 6 January 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
re: varieties, focus, etc. (Dick Dunn)
Understanding!! (Andrew Lea)
Re: predictable vs. homebrew (Terence L Bradshaw)
Homebrew Site? ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Change the terminology ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
cider apples ("Fellenz")
Cider in Australia ("Patrick Murphy")
Re: Cider Digest #941, 30 December 2001 (Robert Kirby)
Request for Cider Press Plans ("toddweaver")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: re: varieties, focus, etc.
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:05:21 -0700 (MST)
Richard Storms <orion@iw.net> wrote:
> Paying attention to styles and "brands" of apples when prepping for a run
> seems, IMHO, somewhat out of line. If you are making a beverage for one's
> own use=85 expect some difference=85 year to year.
We all expect variation from year to year, but that isn't a reason to
ignore "styles and 'brands'" (i.e., varieties) of apples. The varieties of
apples you use will determine the quality of your cider, more than any
other single factor.
Year-to-year variations will tell you that you need to change how you blend
the juice to make a good cider. Some years, everything is tart and you
have to seek out sweet apples. Other years, everything is over-ripe by the
time you get to pressing, so you need to look for the acidic apples to make
a good cider. It's not a matter of trying to be predictable, mind you;
it's a matter of trying to be GOOD.
> I did think this was a homebrew site. but it appears you (the sire) has lost
> its focus.
I'm quite puzzled over this comment. I don't know who "the sire" might be,
and the comments on the digest are nothing more than the compendium of what
everyone writes. If you don't like what someone has written, why don't you
address your comments to that person in particular?
I can't see any significant change in the focus of the Cider Digest over
the time I've been following it, something > 8 years. It has matured, but
that's about it.
> Make your ciders and enjoy what results. Kinds, types and species genetics are
> for those who want a bland product, and a PREDICTABLE one as well.
This is absolutely wrong.
If you care about making good cider, the very first concern is the type of
apples you're using. How could you think otherwise? Would you tell a
wine-maker that it doesn't matter what kind/type/species of grape he's
using? Is there no difference between a cabernet sauvignon and a riesling?
And shouldn't cider be allowed the same consideration?
Knowing what you're doing will _allow_ you to make a bland product...sure.
But that doesn't assure it. It's no more of a condemnation than saying
that if you aim at the target, you might hit it.
If you pay attention to varieties and you use all Kingston Black, you will
make a somewhat predictable cider (although KB can be tricky), but it will
be anything-but-bland.
For another example...I can pretty much guarantee that if you're in the US
and you make your cider from standard Red Delicious apples, it will be bland
to the point of disgusting.
Dick
------------------------------
Subject: Understanding!!
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:22:31 +0000
Richard Storms wrote:
> Kinds, types and species genetics are
> for those who want a bland product, and a PREDICTABLE one as well. That is not what cidermaking is about.
I fundamentally disagree!! Anyone who aspires to do the best at
anything needs to understand it.
Admittedly the depth of understanding required is a matter of personal
preference, and we all take it to different levels in different
circumstances.
But to deny us the wish to understand, to control and to intervene in
otherwise haphazard natural processes - well, that's to deny us what it
means to be human!
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Re: predictable vs. homebrew
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:55:25 -0500
At 11:53 PM 12/30/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Make your ciders and enjoy what results. Kinds, types and species genetics are
>for those who want a bland product, and a PREDICTABLE one as well.
>
>That is not what cidermaking is about.
>
>Richard Storms
>Tilford, SD.
I can't disagree more with this. The whole reason to join into this
community, for me, is to learn from others and make my cider better. I
know people who still make cider by the seat of the pants, as I once did,
and I often find it undrinkable. I also enjoy different styles of cider
and, without having access to them here, must look to recreate them myself.
Their is so much possibility with the variety of ciders out there that one
would be foolish to limit themselves to whatever apples they could find,
whatever yeasts arrive, and whatever results come out of it.Good cider is a
wonderful beverage, but unlike sex, bad cider is good only for flushing the
drains. Were we the type of people to take what comes from haphazard
fermentations, there would never be a need for a group such as this.
My $0.02
Terry Bradshaw
Waterbury, VT
------------------------------
Subject: Homebrew Site?
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 13:15:09 -0800
While I agree with Richard Storm advice to "Make your ciders and enjoy what
results". I think he misses a great deal in dismissing the ongoing
discussions of what makes cider such a interesting subject. Overall the I
think the Digest has matured over the years, with some very interesting
discussions regarding apple varieties, styles, methods etc. Westcott Bay
Orchards is in our third year of producing a quality traditional craft cider
commercially. The challenges of growing, producing and getting a product
with shelf life are daunting for a small producer. Equipment which large
producers can afford and utilize, is not available at prices small producers
can afford, this is particularly true for things like a centrifuge or
equipment to bottle under pressure.
We are in no way trying to create a bland product. But predictable yes,
predictable in the sense that the product will be high quality every year.
Anyway, all the best to all Cider Digest'ers, keep up the many and varied
discussions, may the New Year bring you the best cider ever.
Richard Anderson
Westcott Bay Cider
------------------------------
Subject: Change the terminology
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 13:27:43 -0800
After seeing the various comments on the Digest about the legality of
distilling, I am reminded of the term "dewatering" which a local brewer uses
to describe his home experimentation with various fermented fruit products.
------------------------------
Subject: cider apples
From: "Fellenz" <fellenz@fltg.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 19:57:58 -0500
I'm new to both this list and cidermaking and would like some
recommendations on apple varieties to add to my orchard which will add
character to the cider. There are Empire, Macoun, Idared and Mutsu
planted in the orchard now. I'm located in the Fingerlakes region of
NY. My soils are Farmington and Honeoye loam (high lime sandy soil).
Thanks,
Andy Fellenz
Phelps NY
------------------------------
Subject: Cider in Australia
From: "Patrick Murphy" <themurphy@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:09:21 +0000
Hi all,
I have begun the cider making course (via the internet) with Core Food and
Drink in preperation for study in England in September 2002.
My first assignment is on the history of cider in Australia - easier than it
sounds.
To date it sort of looks as though we missed out on cider as a mainstream
beverage primarily because the first settlers did not have the 'time' to
wait for an orchard and as soon as sufficient grain was available began to
make beer. Firewood was plentiful and the population was centralised so it
looks as though our cider industry began at the point were the industrial
revolution in the UK changed consumption patterns to beer from cider.
Mercury in Tasmania did buy out several small cider makers and there is some
history of convict orchards in tassie but the mainland seems to have
followed the pattern of population spread following the development of rail
facilities so that as railroads allowed transport, apple production
increased and cider began to be made from the excess or seconds.
Thats about as far as I am able to go at the moment. I have written to
Bulmers (they purchased several of the older companies) to find out their
history in Oz, so far no response.
Anyone have any clues, considerations or leads?
Patrick Murphy
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #941, 30 December 2001
From: Robert Kirby <Robert.Kirby@ipsos.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:29:52 -0000
In reply to Steve Rose - steverose@tiscali.co.uk
about East Midlands cider varieties
from Robert.Kirby@Ipsos.com
Steve is very lucky in that he is equidistant from Hereford and Worcester -
with their West-country system of blending specific cider varieties - and
Norfolk to the East with its tradition of using a single variety, usually an
eater or a cooker. Both systems have excellent results. I have read that
not so long ago, Norfolk and Suffolk formed the largest commercial cider
area in the UK. You have only to visit Attleborough to see how the
railway-station is built in the huge old Gaymers site - for delivering
apples and distributing the cider. I get my apples - all very old Bramley
type blushed red and high in sugar, from a friend with two big old trees
outside Norwich and another friend with an ancient orchard of 70 smaller
trees in North West Norfolk near Emneth. Now there is an apple almost local
to East Midlands - The Emneth, sometimes called Early Victoria.
I looked the following up in Sally Twiss's book, "Apples, A Social History".
The Catshead is actually a Midlands tree . Huge examples of this can still
be seen with its very large, green, slightly conical fruit. This fruit is
mentioned in a poem by John Philips (1679-1709). Another apple popular in
the midlands in the 19th century was the Bess Pool - it's late flowering
avoided the frosts. Don't forget that the Bramley itself originates in
Nottinghamshire.
Finally, Raymond Bush wrote in 1943 that he recommended for
Worcestershire...
Epicure, Lord Lambourne and Ellison's Orange
and for Lincolnshire...
Cox, James Grieve and Miller's Seedling.
But remember, I use the Norfolk method, ie One Apple Tree = Cider.
They would not necessarily pass muster in the West as "Cider-Apples".
Robert Kirby
------------------------------
Subject: Request for Cider Press Plans
From: "toddweaver" <toddweaver@superonline.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 17:08:19 +0200
Would anyone be willing to share plans for a home made cider press? I have
searched the net and found a couple of sketchy ones without measurements and
without sufficient detail (enough details for me). I would probably only do
10 gallons or so at a time. Are truck air-shock bladders the rage now? Are
there hobby presses available at a decent price? I am an experienced
homebrewer and novice wine and mead maker and am looking forward to cider
making. I just need the juice.
Todd
Incirlik Air Base, Turkey
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #942
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