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Cider Digest #0913
Subject: Cider Digest #913, 1 August 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #913 1 August 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
CDs in trees (Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au)
Sorbate inhibition (Andrew Lea)
Verjuice (Andrew Lea)
cider tour-USA (mike tomlinson)
Judges comments (darrell.j.proksa@rrd.com)
verjus (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: CDs in trees
From: Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:27:37 +1000
Andrew Lea spoke of the success of hanging CDs in trees for deterring birds.
Perhaps it will work for blue-tits and blackbirds. The latter we have in
Australia too. Does anyone have any experience of how it might work with any of
the larger Australian parrots like the Cockatoo or even the King Parrot, both of
which like to eat fruit? I can't imagine a cockatoo being too fussed by a CD.
Are there any other methods being used for these larger birds?
Rod
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Subject: Sorbate inhibition
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:21:46 +0100
Joe Hecksel asked:
> My problem is that my fermentation is not launching very well. The
> ingredients list "Potassium sorbate to preserve freshness." Is that
> inhibiting my fermentation?
>
Almost certainly the answer is 'yes'. There is no practicable way to
remove the sorbate and I never heard of any good fermenting yeast that
would reliably overcome sorbate. Worse than that, once sorbate _is_
metabolised (usually by lactic acid bacteria) it forms a putrid
'geranium' odour aroma due to the formation of ethoxy-hexadiene from the
sorbate.
I think this is a non-starter. Sadly, you must go back to the beginning
and find a juice that's maybe pasteurised but does not have sorbate or
benzoate as preservatives.
Andrew Lea.
Oxford UK
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
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Subject: Verjuice
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:36:03 +0100
David Pickering said
> Fermented crab (apple) juice was distinguished from cider and was called
> verjuice. This is mentioned by Tusser in his famous poem:
> "Be suer of vergis (a gallon at least)
> So good for the kitchen, so needfull for beast:
> It helpeth thy cattle, so feeble and faint
> If timely such cattle with it thou acquaint."
The dictionary (OED) definition of verjuice is:
"[a. OF. vertjus, verjus, vergus, etc. (mod.F. verjus), f. vert green,
unripe + jus JUICE.]
The acid juice of green or unripe grapes, crab-apples, or other
sour fruit, expressed
and formed into a liquor; formerly much used in cooking, as a condiment,
or for medicinal purposes."
But I suspect this is only half the story. Remember that until the late
19th century, the microbial process by which juice became wine (cider)
and then vinegar was totally unknown. I suspect a lot of verjuice
started off life as fresh but acid juice, then fermented and finally
acetified to what we would now think of as a very rough cider vinegar.
Quote from RK French 'History and Virtues of Cyder':
" Verjuice is the sharp juice of crabs or other apples, sometimes
fermented and sometimes not. The term was often applied pejoratively to
cider that had become acid in fermentation. Its acidity was useful in
making syllabubs and possets."
As all these quotes imply, it seems to have been largely a culinary aid.
It use for livestock is interesting - in the UK, I'm told that one of
the largest current markets for cider vinegar is to treat cattle for mastitis
and to give to horses to condition their coats. I believe it is applied
both externally and internally via their feed. In the US and Canada, of
course, cider vinegar is the main culinary vinegar, whereas in the UK
90% of our culinary vinegar is from malt (beer).
Andrew Lea
Oxford, UK
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: cider tour-USA
From: mike tomlinson <tugger@netreach.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 07:48:03 -0400
My wife and I will be traveling in early Sept from Phila., PA to Santa
Cruz, CA and would like to find and visit anyone making cider or growing
cider apples along the way. Our route is not firm but in general we will
follow the intersates ( I 70 or I 80) but if we found great home made
cider we would naturally change our route to visit and learn. .Can
anyone make suggestions as to who we might visit?
This past Wed nite I started 20 gallons of cider for my brother in law
and father in law who learned to love cider this past year ( and drank
me out of my year's supply) after visiting some of the cider makers in
the UK who appear on this site.. I found a local orchard who had frozen
unpasturized gallons and had it available. The mix is unknown but is
probalby totally from dessert apples and tasted a bit watery after it
had thawed. We used Lalvin chanpagne yeast and 8 oz cane sugar per
gal.trying for a New England type cider. Any suggestions would be
appreciated.
Mike Tomlinson
#1 Farm
Elverson, PA
------------------------------
Subject: Judges comments
From: darrell.j.proksa@rrd.com
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:57:01 -0500
This is a follow up to my previous posts which can be found in digests 881
and 883. Since that time, I have learned much from Andrew Lea's posts
(Thanks !!) plus the web sites he references - primarily, ferment cool for
an extended period of time. The cider in question was bottled at the
beginning of January. Clarity was very good and I added a gallon of
organic juice (unpasteurized, no sugars or preservatives added) for
priming. I prefer my ciders slightly carbonated. At this time, the
bottles are highly carbonated. Here's a summary of the judge's comments
from four AHA-sanctioned competitions in which this cider was entered.
Scores are on a 50 point scale.
End of March - Urban Knaves of Grain Drunk - Monk Challenge
Avg. score 33. Alcoholic, fruity. Faint apple aroma. Moderate level of
sweetness with little apple flavor.
Early April - Brewers of South Suburbia - Chicago Cup Challenge
Avg. score 24. Astrigent, sulfury flavor. Very low apple aroma and
flavor. Alcohol finish - too dry.
May - Rochester Mills - Over The Mill
Avg. score 38 - First Place in ciders. Sweet apple and spice aroma with
sugary 'cotton candy' backnote. Expecting more apple flavor, but good
balance. Slight astringency. Slight to medium carbonation.
June - AHA Nationals
Avg. score 23. Spicy, appley-sweet aroma fades fast. High carbonation.
Very sugary, acidic. Prickly mouthfeel, slight off flavor at finish.
Apple character is lacking.
I will be entering this cider in one more competition at the end of Oct.
Naturally, I'll need to de-gas the bottles before submission to avoid any
gushers. I also plan to start a new batch this fall once the weather cools
to more favorable fermentation levels.
Darrell Proksa
Downers Grove, IL
------------------------------
Subject: verjus
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 21:34:17 -0600 (MDT)
The term verjuice (or French verjus) seems to have gone through some
changes and maybe a period or two of obscurity. There was a bit of an
attempt to revive the idea in the US in fancy cooking...a few years ago,
maybe more, but I can't say that I've seen much evidence of it lately.
You can sort of get one story from a good dictionary which suggests that
verjuice is from unripe apples or crabs, and is not fermented. You can
get a different story from a good cooking reference. Larousse Gastro-
nomique is quite clear that it's made from the juice of unripe grapes.
They agree that it's not fermented.
The name comes from an earlier vertjus, meaning "green juice". For the
purpose of cooking, it seems it could be made from either grapes or apples,
as circumstance allowed; the purpose is to add a sharp taste but not the
same taste as vinegar. Indeed, verjus would have different acids--ummm...
tartaric and malic, I suppose--and has a more fruity character. I remember
seeing a recipe calling for verjus but suggesting that vinegar could be
used at some loss of quality in the final result. I also remember seeing
another recipe which used both verjus and vinegar.
Dick
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End of Cider Digest #913
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