Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #0933
Subject: Cider Digest #933, 26 November 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #933 26 November 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Good Raw Apple Juice in SoCal (Drew Beechum)
Re: Cider Digest #932, 21 November 2001 (j/kbooth)
Champagne Yeast (Ciderist@aol.com)
Re: Tire bladder press (Mark)
Phenol in Cider? (Tim Bray)
Re: modifying a screw press to bladder (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Aged cider (Claude Jolicoeur)
Dick's bladder press (Andrew Lea)
'Champagne' flavours (Andrew Lea)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Good Raw Apple Juice in SoCal
From: Drew Beechum <Drew.Beechum@disney.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 10:19:58 -0800 (PST)
Hey.. I know it's bit late in the year, but I'm wondering if anyone
knows a good source of apple juice with appropriate varietals in
Southern or Central California. All of the apple orchards I've seen
around here tend to sell Empire or Fuji juice both of which have a
fairly lousy total acidity.
- -- Drew
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #932, 21 November 2001
From: j/kbooth <jameshbooth@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:01:04 -0500
Last saturday, Jacques Pepin, the TV chef had a TG hour long
special that included a segment on bottling his home brewed
Normandy style cider. However, they served commercial wines
with their meal.
wassail, jim booth
------------------------------
Subject: Champagne Yeast
From: Ciderist@aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 20:22:46 EST
Hi Everyone,
I finally got round to reading several Digests that had built up in the last
month or so. I saw repeated mention of the use of champagne yeast to make
cider. I know some cider books recommend it but, in my humble opinion, DO NOT
EVER USE CHAMPAGNE YEAST! Everybody I've talked to that's made much cider
agrees, while we have made some acceptable ciders with it, they all would
have been better with some other yeast, any other yeast almost. Champagne
yeast gives a fast strong ferment, which makes a harsh cider. Slower
fermentation is better because it leaves more bouquet and sedulity.
I'm not sure I have a favorite yet, I'm still experimenting (I'm on batch #60
currently) , but I would recommend starting out with Cote Des Blancs or an
ale yeast, those have always worked well for me.
Respectfully, Shaun Shepherd
Portland Or.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Tire bladder press
From: Mark <scaffnet@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 20:12:42 -0800 (PST)
Regarding the tire bladder press...
Maybe its the cider talking here (one of my 2
year old bottles has a great apple flavor so I've
enjoyed a few cups) but I gotta say that the tire
bladder thingy I just read in the digest takes
the cake.
I thought potters (and I am one) were the
cheapest souls on the earth (making tools from
discarded guitar strings and old plastic lids)
but cider makers have gone one better: cheap
tools that are technologically advanced!
I guess like attracts like. How many cider
makers are potters, or vice versa??
Cheers!
Mark
------------------------------
Subject: Phenol in Cider?
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 18:37:35 -0800
Well, this was a nasty surprise. We brought back two bottles of Lecompte
Cidre Pays d'Auge AOC from the duty-free shop at Charles deGaulle. Opened
one for Thanksgiving, expecting a treat, and instead encountered a definite
phenolic taste. There is little aroma - either good or bad- but the
medicinal taste is unmistakable. And not pleasant, either; it gets worse
the more you drink.
I looked through my cider books and can find no hints as to the cause of
phenolic taste in cider. Anybody else encounter this, and have any idea
why an AOC cider would suffer such a defect?
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: modifying a screw press to bladder
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:41:12 -0500
A 10:52 01.11.21 -0700, Dick Dunn wrote :
>Subject: modifying a screw press to bladder
>A friend of mine... Then he brought out his prize find:
>a pneumatic bladder from a truck suspension. It looks a bit like a tire:
>two metal plates with a rubber bladder, cross-section like this:
Dick,
I really can't believe I didn't think about this before, for 2 reasons: 1-
I work with these pneumatic things every day, and 2- I am a mechanical
engineer in the real life - so I should think about those things... I use
these bladders as pneumatic actuators to apply pressure on experimental
setups in my university lab, and we have a couple of spares. You can be
sure I will have a pressing setup that will use one of them next fall...
A quick calculation tells me I should obtain the same pressure I now get
with my screw press with only 40 psi air pressure in the bladder, easily
obtainable with a hand air pump.
The main problem I see with this is that these actuators are quite costly.
The last time I bought one for the lab, it was around 300$ CDN (200 US).
Used ones are not easily found because they are most often used on trucks,
and when they change them, they are useless: too worn out and leaky.
More on this next fall.
Claude Jolicoeur, Quebec
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Aged cider
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:38:44 -0500
My note on aged cider a few digests back provoked a few comments...
To Arun, I send all my concoleances for this good stuff that went down the
drain. We should always taste before. It occured to me also to have
undrinkable young cider that became excellent after 3-4 years. It had been
partly made with a wild crab that had a very special aroma of bananas. But
it also contained a lot of tannins and the taste transformed a lot with time.
Bob asked if I sometimes add sulfite.
Very rarely, Bob. For 2 main reasons: 1- my apple mixtures are usually on
the sharp side and a cider that contains more acidity is much less prone to
disorders. And 2- I use sound apples that have been hand picked on the tree.
Once in a while, I add a bit of sulfite to the juice, when the 2 conditions
stated above are not met for a reason or another.
I do rince my press and equipment with a sulfite solution, but the quantity
that remains in the juice is negligible.
And Andrew wrote:
>Like Claude, I find that naturally conditioned and naturally yeasted
>ciders can keep almost indefinitely in glass bottles.
Andrew, on the question of if a naturally yeasted cider will keep better
than one that had added yeast, I'm not convinced. I have some difficulty to
believe that a good yeast would make the cider spoil sooner. The 1992
bottles I still have were done with Champagne yeast. I guess I will have to
taste them soon to find out.
On the other subject you brought, I agree with you that the best cider will
never taste the same as a good Champagne, but no other "Methode
champenoise" wine does either... In my opinion, there is some magic in a
good true Champagne that simply can't be matched by anything else.
And I would also like to thank "RJ" and Andrew for taking a bit of time to
answer my question on Sparkolloid.
Claude Jolicoeur, Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: Dick's bladder press
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:12:14 +0000
Dick wrote:
> I described this impromptu modification to Andrew Lea, who congratulated us
> on re-inventing the "Willmes pneumatic bladder press".
To be fair to Dick and Dave, their lateral thinking is actually not
quite the same as the commercial bladder presses (Willmes or Idropress,
in which the bladder runs the whole length of the mash). Having seen
the pictures of the bladder itself, it almost cries out to be
incorporated into a novel press design of its own! Given its profile, I
would guess you would need to retain the press plate but just ensure the
bladder was a snug fit inside the basket, and fix some form of top plate
to counter Isaac Newton's 'equal and opposite reaction'. Presumably the
system could be operated just with a foot pump and would then be totally
'green'!
Do I detect the beginnings of a new cottage industry here? Too late to
patent it it now - you've gone public!
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: 'Champagne' flavours
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 08:55:51 +0000
Ben Watson wrote:
> My theory is that leaving the lees in the
> bottle should encourage autolysis. But the process can take several years in
> Champagne, and I never have 5-year-old cider hanging around. Starting with
> the 2000 cider, I'll set aside a few bottles to see if, over time: 1) the
> cider becomes more "Champagne-like" after that time
Ben, I've had ciders in bottle for five years on their own yeast.
They're still fine but they never go biscuity! I wish you luck but I
believe the problem is something more fundamental relating to the
different biochemistry of grapes vs apples and it's something we'll
never be able to do anything about!
Andrew
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #933
*************************
