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Cider Digest #0938
Subject: Cider Digest #938, 15 December 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #938 15 December 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Andrew, Julian, industrialism, and a matter of scale (Dick Dunn)
Acidic Cider (Nathan Kanous)
Re: Acidic Cider ("John A. Ray")
MLF cultures, and precipitating tartaric acid (Daniel Knierim)
Cider Acidity and Esters ("Bruce D. Popp")
Precipitating acid (Andrew Lea)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Andrew, Julian, industrialism, and a matter of scale
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:22:13 -0700 (MST)
I'm amused at the articles by Julian Temperley and Andrew Lea, back-to-back
in the most recent Cider Digest, which might *seem* to contradict one
another.
Now, I *know* Julian makes excellent cider. Probably the fact that the
first real English cider I ever tasted was at Burrow Hill, has a lot to do
with why I play janitor to the Cider Digest.
And I *know* Andrew makes some fine ciders at home, and I also know that he
understands the "industrial" aspects of making that-which-is-called-cider
in the mass-market commercial world.
John Vandermeulen had asked:
> > Do the hard cider industrialists really accept a happenstance uncertain
> > bacterial malic-lactic acid conversion, when they have 10,000 Litres
> > sitting in their vats? Of course not. So what do they do, that we don't?
Julian Temperley had replied, after a note on achieving malo-lactic
fermentation:
> We would be happy to leave a 50,000 litre vat to this process. Julian
There's a matter of scale to be understood. Julian (Burrow Hill) has a
production which I last saw stated at 80-100,000 gallons, so say 350-
450,000 liters. That is "industrial" to any of us who make cider at home,
even if we're making a couple hundred liters. And in the context of John
Vandermeulen's question in terms of 10K liters, it's dozens of times that
unit. (In US terms, think of Burrow Hill as a 50 thousand case winery.)
But contrast a real "industrial" cider producer (I should say "industrial
cider"!)--take Bulmer, at 50 million gallons a year or so. Let's call that
230 million liters. Do they even deal in a unit as small as John's 10,000
liters (0.05% of their annual production)? Yes, but only in their minor
"boutique" product lines.
Andrew sums it up:
> ... Lots of measurements, lots of laboratory
> work, lots of blending - each cider is tailored to a consistent formula.
> Fine for that market, but not what we craft cidermakers are about.
In particular, the mass-market ciders are at best half-ciders, the other
half of the fermentation being a sugar syrup.
As to malo-lactic, my own limited experiments say that you can try to get
or skip it, depending on the sort of juice you started with. In a lot of
cases, we in the US can only get apples which are low in acid (and tannin
and sometimes aroma and flavor as well...<sigh!>) so it's better to try to
avoid the M-L fermentation.
Once in a while you get some incredibly acidic apple in your blend (got one
in '96...I know where that tree is, and it's on My List!). You can buy the
malo-lactic bacteria culture...last time I needed it, Wyeast sold it, and
that would take the uncertainty out _if_ you wanted malo-lactic fermenta-
tion. If you don't want it, I guess you just gotta keep it clean.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Acidic Cider
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous@pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:20:23 -0600
John Ray asks if there is a way to precipitate tartaric acid in cider. He
mentions that overly acidic fruit wines can get some tartarate precipitate
forming and reduced acidity. Just a thought coming on here.
I asked Dick Dunn privately about the production of mead brandy by freeze
distillation. He said he hadn't heard of it before but it seemed like a
reasonable approach (rather than heat distillation which would probably
remove many of the nice aromatics). I did some digging.
The digging that I did indicated that some of the acid in the wine would
precipitate out at or near the freezing point. It seemed that there would
be some loss of acid during the freezing process (probably not in
proportion to reduction in volume due to removing the resultant ice crystals).
Anyhow, it may be possible (in addition to malolactic fermentation) to
reduce acidity to some extent by chilling a cider to near freezing to
precipitate some of the acids present in the cider.
This is all wild supposition on my part. No science, no proof, no cider in
my basement. Yes, there is a lot of conflicting information that floats
around on the net about fermentations in general, but the longer you are
around it, the more you read, the more you learn to sort some of it
out. Again, this is just wild supposition on my part.
I have to admit I've never had a cider that I really, really enjoyed. Many
that I've had (home made) have had a tobacco or "copenhagen snuff" aroma
and flavor to them that I don't care for. That is until last Saturday when
the Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild had our holiday party and one of
the attendees brought out a bottle of cider he picked up in
England. Wow! If I could make that at home, I'd be in heaven. It was (in
the words of Tony the Tiger) GREAT!
Back to your regularly scheduled life.
nathan in madison, wi
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Acidic Cider
From: "John A. Ray" <jar18@lamar.colostate.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:32:29 -0700
Nathan,
I've (accidentally - see disclaimer below) tried freeze processed ciders and
it's pretty difficult to get the right things out at the right times. I did
mine in a controlled freezer we had at work and managed to make a really nice
alcoholic slushy which gave an incredible headache the next day. The problem
wasn't that the acids didn't freeze out, just that all of the aldehydes,
ketones and other headache forming crap didn't as well. This is what true
northern applejack is.
As I understand the story/process, the farmers would put all their cider fruit
into rain barrels and cap them. Let it ferment naturally and around
mid-winter, they would "tap" the barrel with a hot poker. In the center of
the barrel was the "ice heart" which was all of the stuff that hadn't fell to
the bottom or frozen out on the sides and top of the barrel. They'd drink
this stuff and get roaring drunk and have very nasty hangovers the next
day...again off of the aldehydes and ketones that wouldn't freeze out. The
actual making of Applejack I am given to understand is a fickle process
depending greatly on just the right fluctuations in day/night temperature for
an extended period of time
In normal distillation, you'd boil a volume of cider and collect the "heads",
or the first part of the distillation run. You distill a second time and
collect the "tails". This you backblend with original juice or cider to the
alcohol concentration that you prefer. The seperation efficiencies and
volumes that are discarded and the back-blending are the "art" of the brandy
making process (this is incorrect usage as brandy is made from wine and has
legal definition).
This is all hypothetical of course since I've never ever ever concentrated the
alcohol in a naturally fermented material.
- --
John A. Ray
Research Associate-Floriculture
Colorado State University
Department of Horticulture & Landscape Architecture
111 Shepardson Bldg
Fort Collins CO 80523-1173
970.491.4615 (Office)
970.491.1089 (Lab)
970.491.7745 (FAX)
------------------------------
Subject: MLF cultures, and precipitating tartaric acid
From: Daniel Knierim <dknierim@scn.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:48:06 -0800 (PST)
I'm a beginner at cidermaking, but have some experience as an amateur
winemaker. Here are my winemaker's comments on some recent issues in
Cider Digest. I realize winemaking and cidermaking are two distinct arts,
but some of the questions look almost the same -- at least to a beginner
like me!
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Regarding the discussion about malo-lactic fermentation:
I've heard from multiple sources that several commercial wineries
(including 'craft' vintners, not just mass-market swill-pumpers) pitch
cultures of malo-lactic bacteria in some of their musts.
A few amateur winemakers do, too. Wyeast for example sells an ML bacteria
culture for home winemaking; I haven't tried it, but the company has a
good reputation, and I've been satisfied with their yeast cultures that
I've tried. However most amateurs depend on accidental infection of their
musts, which is apparently common (some authors of winemaking books claim
it's nearly universal).
Getting the ML bacteria to grow, however, is trickier. MLF is less easily
predictable than yeast fermentation and seems to be more particular about
conditions, or depends on combinations of more factors. For example there
are many differences of opinion about the timing of when to pitch the ML
culture, and how to encourage the ML bacteria to grow (with or without
deliberately adding an ML culture). I've gotten strong MLF in some
batches without doing anything to encourage it, while other times when I
wanted MLF, nothing I tried got it to work. (Thanks to Julian Temperley
for another suggestion.)
Also MLF is not always desirable in winemaking -- it depends on the grape
variety, acidity of the batch, and the style of wine desired. So
winemakers try to prevent or stop MLF about as often as they promote it.
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Regarding John Ray's question about precipitating out tartaric acid:
The classic method in winemaking is refrigeration. Cool the wine (or in
our case, cider) and keep it cold for a few days. Then for maximum acid
reduction, rack while cold, leaving the precipitated crystals behind. If
you don't rack before warming it back to room temperature, part of the
tartrate will dissolve back into the liquid. But if it never gets
agitated or warmed above room temperature, some of the crystals will
remain on the bottom and leave the wine (or cider) somewhat less acidic
than before.
You could probably control the amount of tartrate removal by testing it
daily and deciding whether to refrigerate another day. Also the tartrate
will crystalize out somewhat faster at colder temperatures, as long as it
isn't frozen. Since wine and cider contain alcohol, their freezing
temperature is lower than water's; so 0 degrees Celsius (=32 Farenheit)
would be safe.
I've never heard mention of any harm to the wine from this treatment
(unless it really needs all of its tartaric acid!), so I think it would be
safe for cider too.
- - Dan Knierim
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Acidity and Esters
From: "Bruce D. Popp" <vze2r2q3@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:14:43 -0500
Hi,
Recent discussions of cider acidity have discussed malo-lactic
fermentation and aging. I have a couple chemistry type questions.
Wouldn't the conversion of malic acid to lactic acid leave the pH about
the same?
In aging what role does the slow esterification of ethanol and malic or
lactic acid to ehtyl maleate or ethyl lactate play? That would reduce
the acidity and increase the complexity of the smell. What do ethyl
maleate and ethyl lactate smell like?
Bruce Popp
"son of an organic chemist"
------------------------------
Subject: Precipitating acid
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:34:40 +0000
John Ray asked:
> Is there a way to precipitate tartaric
> acid out? I've seen some pretty acidic wines with a goodly bit of
> tartrate on the bottom.
Unfortunately there isn't. Ciders do not contain tartaric acid, only
malic, and none of the malic acid salts are as insoluble as potassium or
calcium tartrate (which is what you sometimes see as crystals in a wine
bottle). So you can't precipitate the acid out.
What you *can* do though (and not mentioned in this discussion so far)
is to add potassium carbonate to neutralise the acid. Because the salt
still stays in solution there is a limit to how far you can take this
process - my old mentors Beech and Pollard recommend a maximum of 1.5
ounces per 10 gallons or about one gram per litre (0.1%).
Worth a try for those with acid problems, though. And, as others have
pointed out, don't be too hasty . Wait till the cider has aged a few
months before making a final judgement that it really is too acid for
your taste.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford U.K.
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #938
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