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Cider Digest #0936
Subject: Cider Digest #936, 10 December 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #936 10 December 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #935, 6 December 2001 (John Vandermeulen)
First time ciders (Tim Bray)
"First Time Ciders" ("gmarion.dri.edu")
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #935, 6 December 2001
From: John Vandermeulen <vandermeulen@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 19:19:41 -0400
I follow up on Michael Tapscott's complaint of very sharp, extremely tart
cider - after successful beer brewing. I have the exact same problem - about
60L of cider, none of which I want to drink - it is plain acidic, altho if you
close your eyes you can detect an apple origin.
I e-mailed all around, and received the most meaningful reply from Gillian
(U.K.) who explained that there are two (2) concurrent (sometimes) processes -
sugar to alcohol fermentation (by yeast), and malic acid to lactic acid (by
bacteria). If you read the web and archives you find out that the latter will
or may occur, at some time later, or when the temp drops, or never, or after
six months in the settling vat - or you can add a bacterial culture for this
particular problem when you rack. Someone else told me that when the cider is
carbonated it will taste better (different?)
Frankly, I sofar rate all this as pure hoo-eeh. Do the hard cider
industrialists really accept a happenstance uncertain bacterial malic-lactic
acid conversion, when they have 10,000 Litres sitting in their vats? Of
course not. So what do they do, that we don't? Why can I not get an answer
to this question?
John Vandermeulen
Oakfield, Nova Scotia, Canada
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Subject: First time ciders
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 16:34:00 -0800
>
>Michael Tapscott wrote:
>
> > I'm mainly a beer brewer but have recently started making ciders. Maybe
> > I should say, trying to make ciders. They seem to come out very sharp
> > and more over extremely tart. What is causing this excessive tartness?
The Cider Sage replied:
>The usual problem here is that people do not realise how much acid there
>can be in an apple juice, often getting up towards 1%. Once the sugar is
>all fermented away that acid becomes really exposed and people -
>especially brewers - are shocked by what they find.
Also, my limited experience indicates that aging can really reduce the
sharpness of a cider. I don't know if it's a malo-lactic conversion or
what, but my first cider was extremely sharp at one month, better after six
months, and fairly good after one year. This was bottle aging on the lees.
As Andrew says, beer and cider are completely different. Cider seems more
like wine; my bottle-conditioned sparkling dry cider came out quite a lot
like a methode champenoise sparkling dry white wine, though with less alcohol.
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
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Subject: "First Time Ciders"
From: "gmarion.dri.edu" <gmarion@dri.edu>
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 17:05:26 -0800
This is in response to "First time ciders." I have made more than my
share of overly tart ciders. You could subject the cider to a
malolactic fermentation, which would replace the especially tart malic
acid with lactic acid. Or, you could sweeten the cider at the end as
suggested by Andrew Lea. However, you do not have to drink quickly or
pasteurize if you use a "wine conditioner", which consists of 2 cups of
sugar +1 cup of water + 1 tablespoon of potassium sorbate. Simply
sweeten the cider to taste with this solution. The potassium sorbate
prevents yeast reproduction and fermentation. I have keep bottles of
wines and ciders for years sweetened this way. Regards, Giles M. Marion
- --
Dr. Giles M. Marion
Earth and Ecosystem Sciences
Desert Research Institute 775-673-7349 (phone)
2215 Raggio Parkway 775-673-7485 (fax)
Reno, NV 89512 gmarion@dri.edu
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End of Cider Digest #936
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