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Cider Digest #0937
Subject: Cider Digest #937, 12 December 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #937 12 December 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
White Labs Cider Yeast ("Berggren, Stefan")
Re: Cider Digest #936, 10 December 2001 (Mark)
Tart cider (Stephen Butts)
("Julian Temperley")
What the industrialists do! (Andrew Lea)
Acidic ciders ("John A. Ray")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: White Labs Cider Yeast
From: "Berggren, Stefan" <stefan_berggren@trekbike.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:37:02 -0600
Hello Cider Lovers,
I wanted to spread the word of White Labs Cider Yeast. For awhile, I have
been using Champagne yeast or natural yeast. Last batch I made (actually a
cyser technically), I used the White Labs english cider liquid yeast. All I
can say is wow ! It took off like a snow storm in January. The resulting
cider 6 months later has strong notes of apple and is still becoming very
mellow with a hint of tartness, but balance by the sweet. The recipe is as
follows:
5 Gallons non-pasteurized cider
4 lbs honey (wildflower)
1 lbs dark brown sugar
1 tsp pectin enzyme
White Labs English Cider Yeast
O.G. 1.102 F.G. 1.005-1.010
est. alcohol 10-11%
Pitch yeast at 70 degrees and aerate or shake like the dickens...
Rack into Primary for 2 days then rack into glass carboy for 3-4 weeks!
Thats all it took to become crystal clear.
bottle as is or add 3/4 cup of natural cane sugar.
Set in basement (55 degrees and dark) for 5-6months.
I brew more ale than cider, but this is fool proof....
Give it a shot and let me know, I think all cider makers will be presently
surprised !
Stefan Berggren
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #936, 10 December 2001
From: Mark <scaffnet@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:02:55 -0800 (PST)
> Subject: Re: Cider Digest #935, 6 December 2001
> From: John Vandermeulen
> <vandermeulen@ns.sympatico.ca>
> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 19:19:41 -0400
>
> I e-mailed all around, and received the most
> meaningful reply from Gillian
> (U.K.) who explained that there are two (2)
> concurrent (sometimes) processes -
> sugar to alcohol fermentation (by yeast), and
> malic acid to lactic acid (by
> bacteria). If you read the web and archives
> you find out that the latter will
> or may occur, at some time later, or when the
> temp drops, or never, or after
> six months in the settling vat - or you can add
> a bacterial culture for this
> particular problem when you rack. Someone else
> told me that when the cider is
> carbonated it will taste better (different?)
>
> Frankly, I sofar rate all this as pure hoo-eeh.
> Do the hard cider
> industrialists really accept a happenstance
> uncertain bacterial malic-lactic
> acid conversion, when they have 10,000 Litres
> sitting in their vats? Of
> course not. So what do they do, that we don't?
> Why can I not get an answer
> to this question?
> John Vandermeulen
Hi John,
Thanks for taking a crack at the hoo-eeh!
I've been spending time talking with home cider
makers at Cider Day (www.ciderday.org) down here
in western Massachusetts and I too am frustrated
by the advice that is contradictory, confusing or
just plain over-complicating.
I think the simplest answer is that the
industrial fermenters have invested in really
good equipment, including high-tech filters to
take out all the yeast and other critters when
they get their cider they way they want it, thus
stabilizing it for bottling. They are also
regulated and scrupulously CLEAN.
Us home brewers, who tend to try to make silk
purses out of sows ears by creating pressing and
fermenting equipment out of truck transmissions,
spent nuclear fuel, old panthose and so on will
just never approach that level of precision and
control!
And when faced with a baffling lack of control
people come up with all kinds of solutions, some
base on science, some based on superstition, and
unless you are replicating your cider time and
again over thousands of fermentations, most are
un-reproducible.
So keep fermenting and appreciating the inherent
unpredictability and variation of your ciders,
cause until you get industrial, you are going to
get a lot of different kinds of cider!
Mark Lattanzi
------------------------------
Subject: Tart cider
From: Stephen Butts <buttss@lawrence.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:11:17 -0600
A reply to John Vandermeulen (and other good beer brewers):
John. Trust us. We've been there. Unless there is something seriously
wrong, your cider will get MUCH better in time. If you can spare the
containers (carboys or whatever), rack it once, stick it in a cool place,
and leave it the heck alone. If not, bottle it in the biggest bottles you
can find and leave it the heck alone. Try some along about April or May,
and again next fall. Odds are about 80% you will be astounded.
And, because I just can't resist the opening you have provided:
> Frankly, I sofar rate all this as pure hoo-eeh. Do the hard cider
> industrialists really accept a happenstance uncertain bacterial malic-lactic
> acid conversion, when they have 10,000 Litres sitting in their vats? Of
> course not. So what do they do, that we don't? Why can I not get an answer
> to this question?
What they do that we don't is MAKE CRUMMY CIDER! Most of 'em, anyway. (Sorry,
couldn't resist.)
Very best wishes,
- -- Steve Butts, Wisconsin, USA
------------------------------
Subject:
From: "Julian Temperley" <somcb@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:57:42 -0000
I refer to the problem of acid ciders. If the acidity is natural, ie
malic, then malolactic bacteria should at least half the acidity, and
they will also give interesting, more complex flavours as well. The key
to getting the bacteria to work is leaving the cider on its' yeast and
about 14 degrees C. Don't rack the cider off. It is the nutrients given
off by the rotting yeast cells which feed the malolactic fermentation.
We would be happy to leave a 50,000 litre vat to this process. Julian
Temperley. www.ciderbrandy.co.uk
------------------------------
Subject: What the industrialists do!
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:25:05 +0000
" Do the hard cider industrialists really accept a happenstance uncertain
bacterial malic-lactic acid conversion, when they have 10,000 Litres
sitting in their vats? Of course not. So what do they do, that we don't?
John Vandermeulen
Oakfield, Nova Scotia, Canada"
No indeed they don't. In fact, most large cidermakers regard the MLF as an
uncontrolled nuisance and do their best to prevent it. Bear in mind that
few commercial ciders are made from pure juice - rather, a mixture of fresh
juice, juice concentrate and glucose syrup is used. So, if for example you
take a fresh juice at 0.7% acid and SG 1.050, you add glucose syrup to SG
1.100. This you ferment to dryness as a high alcohol (12%) base cider. You
dilute this with an equal volume of water to give a cider at 6% alcohol and
a manageable 0.35% acid. Then, as I described in my last posting, you add
a mixture of sugar and artificial sweeteners (e.g. acesulfam or saccharin)
to get the sweetness / acid balance right. Then you pasteurise, sterile
filter or perhaps add benzoate or sorbate before carbonation and bottling.
That's in essence how it's done. Lots of measurements, lots of laboratory
work, lots of blending - each cider is tailored to a consistent formula.
Fine for that market, but not what we craft cidermakers are about.
Andrew Lea
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Acidic ciders
From: "John A. Ray" <jar18@lamar.colostate.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:48:22 -0700
I've used pickling lime to reduce the acidity in some very tart fruit
wines...but I think this would be pretty harsh on ciders. I recall the
end product being very bland and "slakey" (I know this isn't a word).
I'd just let the cider sit for awhile or just grimace and drink a glass
every day (hour) until its gone. Is there a way to precipitate tartaric
acid out? I've seen some pretty acidic wines with a goodly bit of
tartrate on the bottom.
- --
John A. Ray
Research Associate-Floriculture
Colorado State University
Department of Horticulture & Landscape Architecture
111 Shepardson Bldg
Fort Collins CO 80523-1173
970.491.4615 (Office)
970.491.1089 (Lab)
970.491.7745 (FAX)
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #937
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