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Cider Digest #0889
Subject: Cider Digest #889, 8 February 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #889 8 February 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Comment on Digest #888 (jim)
pictures (Tim Bray)
Re: Cider Digest #888, 1 February 2001 (William J. Rhyne)
re: varieties for cider (Dick Dunn)
Lambourn Valley and pressing piccies (Digests 887 & 8) (Rod.McDonald@facs....)
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Subject: Comment on Digest #888
From: jim <jmc1@epix.net>
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:05:22 +0000
re: Varieties for cider ("Diane")
The English and Norman cider varieties really don't contribute all that
much to fresh sweet cider, Diane. Kingston Black and many others are
aptly called "bitters" because of their high astringency, which most
American palates do not find very acceptable. Personally, I find just a
tad (<5%) of a good bitter such as Major a refreshing addition, but I
doubt that most folks would.
There are only a few varieties with which I'm acquainted that make top
quality single-variety cider: Mutsu, Cox's Orange Pippin, and Golden
Russet would head that very short list. Of course these varieties are
also great blenders. You've an excellent list of apples for cider,
Diane, although I'd rather like to see a bit more sugar in it. You may
be too far north for Mutsu to ripen properly; if not, that would be a
fine addition. I've little respect for Delicious as an eating apple,
but good ripe Delicious can add a lot to a cider mix that is a bit too
much on the tart side.
Golden Russet would be just about top of the list if we could get it to
produce. On the usual semidwarfing rootstocks, it just hasn't been
productive. We're trying Golden Russet now on the production-inducing
stocks Geneva 16 and G.30; we're especially hopeful that G.30, which has
been so great under Empire and Gala, will also persuade Golden Russet to
get down to business.
//Jim
www.cumminsnursery.com
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Subject: pictures
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:29:06 -0800
Thanks Dick, these do help!
I like the box design for the press; it seems like that would help prevent
press-cloth blowout. Is it really necessary, with this design, to use the
frames to build the cheeses before loading them into the press? Seems like
you could just fill the cloths right in the press, using the sides of the
box in lieu of the forms.
Tim
>http://www.talisman.com/cider/pressing.html
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #888, 1 February 2001
From: rhyne@wli.net (William J. Rhyne)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:00:31 -0800
RE: pasteurization
Rhyne Cyder update
Tomorrow February 3, we (Rhyne Cyder) will be pasteurizing our second batch
from the 2000 harvest, the blend is gravenstein with some of Terry
Harrison's (Sonoma Antique Apple Nursery) cider varieties, such as Nehou,
Yarlington Mill, and Kingston Black. It is 165 case batch.
Our latest "toy" to help with uniform pasteurization results is a portable
deisel-fired water heater that is called a "Hotsy". We are attaching it to
our custom-built pasteurization pan so that the water is recirculated
through the Hotsy to reheat the water. This minimizes water wastage and heat
loss. I will be taking some pictures for the records. The pan can hold about
360 750ml bottles. If this goes as planned, then we will have solved some of
the production and technical challenges (for us at least) to bottle
pasteurize somewhat economically on a small scale. After I hooked up the
hoses, pumps, Hotsy, and pan yesterday, it reminded me of my old hot tub in
purpose but not in appearance.
We are funding this business out of our own pockets and continuing sales so
our ramp up has been very slow. This latest equipment purchase helps to fill
out our tiny little production line. For those that wonder why we
pasteurize, we are doing it at the last step of the process to stop the
fermentation in the bottle so the cider retains some natural sweetness and
to stabilize the product for shipping and storage. We feel that the second
fermentation in the bottle helps to develop nice aromas and sparkle while
retaining the apple essence or character that people were requesting.
Anyway, just wanted to let you know what is happening out in California
besides energy blackouts. For those cider fans in the Tahoe-Northern
California area, we will be pouring our cider at Harrah's South Lake Tahoe
for the Valhalla Winter Micro-Brew Fest, Saturday, February 10, 2001 from
6:30pm-9:30pm.
Bill Rhyne
bill@rhynecyder.com
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Subject: re: varieties for cider
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:14:44 -0700 (MST)
"Diane" <disk@iserv.net> asks a bunch of questions:
> ...As I do research on cider I read
> names like KINGSTON BLACK,FOXWHELP,SWEET COPPIN,GOLDEN RUSSET,ROXBURY
> RUSSET....and so on.These sound very interesting and people say these
> are the BEST cider apples.I use Macs,jonathon,Spys,Idared ,jonagold and
> a few others.Will these old standouts turn my good cider into GREAT
> cider?...
You've mixed several types of apples in that first list, so part of the
answer depends on the type. When you hear of a particular cider apple,
find out what category it belongs in--bitter or not, sharp or sweet.
That's a first cut at figuring out what it will do for your cider.
* Kingston Black and Foxwhelp are "bittersharps"--that is, they are tart
and they have some tannin. KB can also have good sugar; don't know
about Foxwhelp. Either of these will add good character to a cider,
and could be made into a cider on its own.
* Sweet Coppin is a "sweet"--not particularly high in tannin or acid.
Those first three are traditional English cider varieties.
* The Golden and Roxbury Russets are old American varieties that produce
good juice and cider. I haven't seen a written classification of them
but I'd say they're medium-acid, low-tannin.
>...Should I spend the time and money on them.Are they that
> outstanding?Does a good cider apple make a good sweet cider apple?...
A good cider apple doesn't necessarily make a good juice apple. Obviously
in either case you want some acid (tartness), but I don't feel that very
much tannin helps. I've had Kingston Black juice, though, and it was quite
nice.
As to what to grow...if I were you I'd try the russets first, and I do
think either or both of those would help both juice and cider. The juice
has good flavor and a sort of "richness" (don't know how else to describe
it). Yes, I think they would be worth it.
What I know of Kingston Black (attempts of my own plus conversations with
other folks growing them) is that it's slow and cantankerous. But the
taste is interesting. If you have space for more trees and you can find a
good source, put in a couple, or whatever it takes to get enough fruit to
run your press once with just KB so you can try it.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.
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Subject: Lambourn Valley and pressing piccies (Digests 887 & 8)
From: Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:33:31 +1100
Congratulations are in order for Roy Bailey (and his daughter Alice) for taking
a long term view and establishing a new cider and perry orchard. Well done! When
will we see some piccies on the Lambourn Valley Cider Web site?
Regarding the pictures of Greg and Steven Jordan's pressing operations a couple
of things come to mind. I was interested to see the immensity of the operation,
but intrigued by the crushed apples in the buckets being made into cheeses. Have
you thought of automating the transfer of the apple pulp from the grinder to the
cheese moulds? Also, any chance of a photo of the grinder? I was also interested
in the out of doors nature of the whole event, and the fact that you use
stainless steel sides to the frames when pressing.
Regards,
Rod
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End of Cider Digest #889
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