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Cider Digest #0906
Subject: Cider Digest #906, 22 June 2001
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #906 22 June 2001
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Vancouver tips please ("Kristine Adam")
Lyne Down? (Dick Dunn)
Re: speaking of carbonation ("Iain Wyder")
Cider in BC ("Iain Wyder")
Ace cider geysers (NLSteve@aol.com)
Watering trees (David Pickering)
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Subject: Re: Vancouver tips please
From: "Kristine Adam" <kristineadam@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:04:09 -0700
Dave Matthews asked:
> Can anyone please recommend some places to try some fine Canadian
> Natural Cider?
So far the only "real" cider I've found in the Vancouver area is called
Merridale Cider, which is produced on Vancouver island. It's quite difficult to
track down on the mainland, the only place I've found it is in a little wine
shop in Lonsdale Quay in North Vancouver. Other than that we have a plethora of
standard commercial ciders (frequently referred to as "liquor-pop") plus
Strongbow.
Hope you enjoy your visit!
Kristine Adam
Port Moody, BC
------------------------------
Subject: Lyne Down?
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:23:48 -0600 (MDT)
"David Matthews" <Dave.Matthews7@btinternet.com> wrote:
> P.S. Oh, by the way, Lyne Down Cider is for sale here in Herefordshire,
> England. The asking price is four hundred thousand pounds sterling.
> Interested? Drop me a line.
David, or anyone else who knows, please tell:
Why are they up for sale? That has a lot to do with how interesting a
business is...plus, of course, it may tell us something about industry ups
and downs.
What does the price include? The name, equipment? Orchards? Entire farm?
(No, I'm not a potential buyer, but again, it's interesting data about
cider production.)
Matthews' CAMRA _Guide_ shows Lyne Down as 1500 gallons/year. That's not a
large operation. It's more than "hobbyist" or even "serious amateur" by
quite a bit...but it isn't nearly enough to make a living. I'm curious
about how one operates a cidery in that range.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: speaking of carbonation
From: "Iain Wyder" <wyder@dccnet.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:43:20 -0700
Dick wrote:
Ace is adding juice and concentrate (presumably for sweetening); they're
also adding potassium sorbate and sulfur dioxide. They must know enough
to prevent fermentation
from re-starting in the bottle--I would think some combination of
filtering,
stabilizing, and letting the sulfite and sorbate get the yeast shut down
and not let them re-start.
There are two likely problems I suggest - the final filter before
packing failed to hold back all the yeast cells and secondly someone
forgot the sorbate in the final bottling blend. Sulfur dioxide in this
case is not a factor.
I don't think that it was a Q/A problem - I would doubt Ace do a lab
test for sorbate - just alcohol, pH, acid, total and free sulfur dioxide
and of course carbonation level would be normal commercial practice -
although some microbiology plates are often part of the procedure.
A very interesting story - particularly since the product wound up at
your party!
Cheers,
Iain
Iain Wyder
Pilgrim's Estate Consultants
38-3459 River Road West
Delta, BC CANADA V4K 4Y9
Phone 604 946 9292 Fax 604 940 9293 Cell 604 250 8164
email wyder@pilgrimsestate.com
website http://pilgrimsestate.com
------------------------------
Subject: Cider in BC
From: "Iain Wyder" <wyder@dccnet.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:59:25 -0700
Hi David,
There is a, operation on Vancouver Island - a 20 acre cider apple
orchard with a cidery attached called Merrydale -the location is Cobble
Hill - If you rent a car you could make a day or so over on Vancouver
Island. I believe there is one other cider operation that might be of
interest to you approximately 200 miles easy of Vancouver. Give me a
call when you arrive in town - I can steer you somewhat in the right
direction.
Incidentally Whistler is neither "up state" or perhaps more accurately
for Canada "up province" - Whistler is -- well just - "I'm going up
to Whistler this weekend!"=20
Best regards,
Iain Wyder
Pilgrim's Estate Consultants
38-3459 River Road West
Delta, BC CANADA V4K 4Y9
Phone 604 946 9292 Fax 604 940 9293 Cell 604 250 8164
email wyder@pilgrimsestate.com
website http://pilgrimsestate.com
------------------------------
Subject: Ace cider geysers
From: NLSteve@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:16:38 EDT
Between legendary eructions, our janitor reports on some Ace cider:
<< ALL the bottles gushed foam as soon as they were opened. If you were so
foolish as to attempt to drink from the bottle, you ended up with the
bulging-cheeks how-am-I-gonna-hold-this-in-and-not-spray-everybody? effect.
I've never seen a commercial beverage so overcarbonated. >>
Dick, your report didn't come right out & say the word "infection," or
mention the possibility of bacteria (or "wild" yeast). But as you note,
"gushers" aren't all that uncommon to homebrewing. Homebrewers tend to blame
infections of bacteria or maybe wild yeast for these, assuming no simple
carbonating error was responsible. Sounds like Ace's sanitation &
stabilization fell short on that batch. I would doubt the original cider
yeast is the culprit, given the off-flavors you report -- if that were the
case, you'd just have a dry, overcarbonated cider, wouldn't you?
Also -- and I may be even more likely than usual to be wrong on this -- it
seems to me that the character of a brew over-bubbly from bacterial infection
is different from the character of one overcarbonated from conventional C02
carbonation methods. The foam doesn't seem the same. I'm curious if anyone
agrees/disagrees with this.
There weren't any "rings" around the inside of the necks of the bottles, were
there?
Then there's the shelf life question you raised. Given enough time, even a
"pretty stable" beverage can go bad. Last night, I opened a 5-year old
homebrewed Imperial stout, 8% alc. by volume, that has been terrific -- until
last night's bottle, a gusher. I'm hoping it was one bad bottle & not a
whole batch whose time has come and gone. Regrettably, it's stored around 70
degrees F, & that warm temp. isn't very forgiving of a few hitchhiking wee
beasties put into a bottle five years ago. Even, evidently, at 8% ABV.
Who knows how old your Ace bottles were, let alone storage temperature, etc.
Sometime after the commercial cider industry grows up, maybe we can pressure
them for bottling dates on the bottles, like a few microbrews do.
Back to work,
Steve
------------------------------
Subject: Watering trees
From: David Pickering <davidp@netwit.net.au>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:06:27 +1000
Further to Dick Dunn's question on watering it may be something
warranting more discussion than it might at first appear.
I began with drippers on my trees using 4L/hr (1gall/hr) drippers, with
drippers placed centrally between trees that are spaced 3m/10ft apart in
the row, in rows 5m/16ft apart. It was effective but as the trees grew
the system became less satisfactory as the trees became larger. I could
have increased the number of drippers per tree but I was beginning to
wonder about the rationale of drippers.
A dripper is ideal where it is providing all or most of the water for a
plant as the roots tend to congregate in the volume of soil that is wet
by the dripper. Depending on your soil characteristics the shape of wet
soil tends to be an expanding cone or pear-shape with depth but it is
difficult to increase the soil area covered. Apply extra water and it is
just as likely that proportionally more water will drain down through
the soil past the point at which apple tree roots can access it.
Increase the numbers of drippers per tree yes, but the practicalities of
wetting anything other than a relatively narrow strip become difficult.
I went the other way, changing over to low volume under-tree sprinklers.
Such sprinklers come in a variety of styles with spinning tops,
'lighthouse or cartwheel styles etc etc.
These I fitted into the same 13mm (1/2 inch) soft poly pipe that had
carried the drippers and by choosing sprinklers of an appropriate flow
rate I could run up to 20 per line, wetting soil circles of about
3m/10ft diameter. What was gained was the ability to wet a large volume
of soil and, by varying the duration of watering, the ability to wet the
soil to a specific depth. The net result is that the tree has a larger
volume of soil from which to derive it's water and thus a better safety
margin for the tree in sudden dry times. You also preserve the grass or
other ground cover between the trees and between the rows which protects
the soil and encourages insect biodiversity in the neighbourhood of the trees.
My mention of the irrigation subject warranting more discussion is
really one I had not previously thought about much until Dick innocently
asked his question.
I have been indoctrinated as an apple grower for the fresh fruit market
and there the policy is to keep the fruit growing and keep the tree
growing. This is because the bigger the fruit the better the prices and
water is the ideal way to bigger fruit.
Yes I suppose we should try and keep the tree growing, particularly
when they are young and even later in life to provide replacement fruit
bearing spurs.
However Dick's question has made me wonder whether if we had a choice we
should be continually keeping the fruit growing.
An apple for the fresh market is at it's best with adequate water
throughout its growth cycle.
However, discerning wine grape growers shun irrigation or perhaps only
water grudgingly. Their rationale is that the flavours are more intense,
sugar levels are higher and perhaps the vine is hardier.
If cider growers took the same approach we might water generously or
adequately through spring and early summer as the cells within the fruit
are dividing then progressively begin to restrict the soil moisture so
that the fruit contains all it's goodies in a more concentrated form.
Less juice admittedly would be produced but would it be better?
To paraphrase Dick's "simpler is better", would "less be more"?
David Pickering
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End of Cider Digest #906
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