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Cider Digest #0885
Subject: Cider Digest #885, 31 December 2000
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #885 31 December 2000
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
New cidermakers (Andrew Lea)
Re: pLambic Cider? (Tim Bray)
Re: My first cider (in NYC) (Tim Bray)
Hardy yeast (Shroom)
Re: Apple crusher plans (Claude Jolicoeur)
pommiers a cidre ("Preben B. Jensen")
RE: Cider Digest #884, 17 December 2000 ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Crushing vs. Grinding (Tim Bray)
Season's Greetings! (Andrew Lea)
("Thomas Bashista, Sky Line")
Re: Weston's Cider ("Reynold Tomes")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: New cidermakers
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:05:10 +0000
Lots of postings from brand new cidermakers on the Digest just now. I
think some of the problems people describe are because they're thinking
like brewers! Cidermaking is much closer to winemaking and that's the
philosophy you need. Slow cool fermentations, no heating of 'must'
(which doesn't need sterilising like wort), etc. Also you have to face
up to the fact that in most ciders (unlike beers) it's very difficult to
retain any residual sugar at the end of fermentation. I think that's
why some beginning cidermakers become quickly disappointed, especially
when they compare what they've made with the commercial ciders which
are sweetened and then pasteurised to preserve them.
This may sound a trifle arrogant but perhaps they'll find my website of
some use - especially the 'Science of Cidermaking' 6-part series, and in
particular Part 3 which tells how to make straightforward dry cider and
Part 4 which shows how much more difficult it is to make a sweet one!
Also there's a link to an online version of the out of print Ag-Canada
booklet on Juices Wines and Ciders which is good reading for a beginner.
Amongst other things, this shows how to make carbonated sweetened and
pasteurised cider at home, and also gives plans for a home-made mill and
press (another recent Digest topic). This booklet was re-formatted for
the Web by the Squeeze on Vancouver Island, which is also an apple /
cider site worth looking at in its own right
(http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/index1.html)
Someone asked about beginner's books recently - in addition to Proulx
and Nichols I can recommend a British book by Michael Pooley and John
Lomax (Real Cidermaking on a Small Scale) and an American one by Ben
Watson (Cider Hard and Sweet). Both are described on my site and are
easily
obtained from Amazon (which is where I got mine!)
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK.
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Re: pLambic Cider?
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:44:54 -0800
>What I've chosen to do is to warm the sweet cider to kill residual
>yeast/bacteria, and let it cool outdoors in the middle of a field in the
>hopes that other wild yeasties inoculate the cider, a la lambic beer.
>
>Unfortunately, for the past two weeks, there has been absolutely no
>activity in the airlock. Did I do something wrong? Was it too cold
>(about 30 - 40 F here in Upstate NY and it's in my basement at about 50F)?
> Should I wait longer? Or, the doomsday scenario, bag the whole thing and
>put some "real" yeast in?
Interesting experiment. I would, for the sake of experiment, continue to
wait and see what, if anything, happens to the cider. My guess is that
there are not nearly enough wild yeasts floating around in your field to
generate a spontaneous fermentation. More likely, the mold spores will
outnumber the yeasts by a sizable margin, so eventually you will get
patches of mold on the surface of the cider. Mold is less temperature
sensitive than yeast, so at low temps it may get started long before the
yeast does anyway. Either that or some bacteria will take over. If you
get mold, you can just skim it off and pitch yeast - the yeast ferment will
eliminate the mold problem.
For comparison, I tried a spontaneous ferment last year with apples from an
old, neglected orchard. No fermentation occurred after 16 days, so I
skimmed off the mold and pitched Montrachet yeast. Worked fine and the
cider is very drinkable, if you like a dry champagne. Further research,
including discussions on this Digest, leads me to suspect that the yeast
inoculation for a spontaneous ferment may come more from the grinding and
pressing equipment than from the apples themselves.
I do not really understand why you would sterilize the fresh must, which
would be much more likely to have a substantial population of yeast in
it. Sure, there will be unwanted bacteria present on the apples too, but
those will also be floating around in the air - where the yeast might not
be. The chances of getting a yeast fermentation, as opposed to a bacterial
contamination, seem much greater if you do not sterilize.
Have you done this successfully with beer? I thought this method only
worked in Belgium, where the native microflora are suitable. (And even
there, the results are not necessarily favorable, if you're not accustomed
to the sour taste of lambic...)
Cheers!
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: My first cider (in NYC)
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 23:01:24 -0800
>
>Does anyone recommend using Champagne yeast? Could that have made the cider
>taste better? How long should I let it age for in the bottle? It probably
>will get better with age?!
Lots of people recommend champagne yeast. It seems to be a very robust
yeast, it ferments just about anything, and it produces a fairly "clean"
product; doesn't impart much taste or odor of its own. It will, however,
produce a completely dry cider, eating up all of the sugar. I used it and
ended up with a cider that is very much like a dry champagne. The
drawbacks are that it ferments off nearly all the apple aromas and flavors.
My cider tasted thin and sharp when first bottled, too. It also had a
nasty yeasty taste. After aging and disgorging the yeast, however, it is
much better. Your cider will almost undoubtedly improve with age. I would
give it 6 months or so.
Cheers!
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Hardy yeast
From: Shroom <shroom@theriver.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:52:01 -0700
In my latest purchased batch of (unpasteurized) cider, I kept one gallon
aside for just drinking, placing it in the fridge. About 3-4 days after
receiving it, I noticed the plastic "milk jug" it was in was bloated,
and the cider starting to sparkle.
It's now been 10 days, the ferment is almost done, and it tastes GREAT.
My question is, if I extract the yeast slurry from the bottom to keep as
a yeast culture for future batches, how do I store it? Keeping it in
the fridge doesn't seem to stop it fermenting, in fact it seems to
prefer fermenting at 34-35 deg F. I know that dumping it into a sterile
sugar solution will keep it for a few weeks, but I'm afraid it'll
ferment that too and cause a glass bomb.
Ideas/suggestions please!
Thanks
Fred Bourdelier
Tucson AZ
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Apple crusher plans
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:58:24 -0500
In Cider Digest #884, Eric Murray wrote:
>Subject: Apple crusher plans?
>So, I'm looking for plans for a powered crusher that I can build.
>I've got basic metalworking equipment and skills, a MIG welder
>that can weld stainless, and a small benchtop lathe (7X10 US-style
>measurements). Got plans or design ideas?
Eric, I built myself a powered grinder that works well. The rotor is
stainless, built from a piece of 6 in diameter pipe by 6 in long, on a 3/4
in shaft, with teeth welded on the cylinder. The housing is good quality
3/4 plywood - actually, it is a 20 year old BC fir plywood that I
recuperated, much better quality that what we can buy now. The motor is 1/4
HP - this is a bit weak and should be replaced by a stronger one - 1/2 HP
should be fine with this size of rotor. I have a 8 in pulley on the rotor
and a 2 in on the motor shaft. An automotive V belt works fine for power
transmission. I have put 2 ball bearings with oil seals to prevent the
apple juice to go in the bearings. Takes less than 5 minutes to grind a
bushel. Unfortunately, I don't have a real plan I could pass on to you, but
I hope this will give you ideas.
Claude Jolicoeur, Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: pommiers a cidre
From: "Preben B. Jensen" <lesa@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:49:44 -0800
I just want to let you know that the great book on ciderapple trees "
Pommiers a cidre" is available for US$ 52, which is a lot less than what
was reported in Cider Digest #844. I bought my copy from Amazon.fr,and
to say that I am impressed with the book is an understatement.342 french
varieties described,most with color pictures and technical data.
Preben B Jensen
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #884, 17 December 2000
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:35:35 -0800
We are do a bit of our cider relying on natural yeasts. The objective is to
have a long slow fermentation. The temperature in our facility is between 45
and 50F, which according to the literature is what it should be. It took
nearly a month after pressing before we were able to measure any drop in the
SG. It seems to be perking along just fine now. As for adding commercial
wine yeast it depends, some white wine yeasts work well at 40F, while others
suggest a higher working temperature. In this regard we used a commercial
yeast on some of the cider which seems to be behaving much the same as the
natural yeast. The finish product will be the real test.
------------------------------
Subject: Crushing vs. Grinding
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:17:46 -0800
Which is best for cider pressing - crushing or grinding? Exploring
different designs for preparing the pomace, it seems to me that these are
the two fundamental methods. What are the pros and cons of each
method? How many ways are there to skin this cat, anyway?
As I remarked previously, I'm having more difficulty coming up with a
good/cheap/easy/effective design for an apple grinder (or crusher) than for
a press. What types of equipment have you used, how well did it work,
and what would you recommend?
Cheers,
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Season's Greetings!
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:46:25 +0000
A Merry Christmas and a Prosperous New Year to all Cidermakers.
especially those who contribute to this Digest, and especially to our
Janitor, Dick Dunn!
Andrew Lea
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject:
From: "Thomas Bashista, Sky Line" <skyline@crocker.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:29:13 -0500
Subject: pLambic Cider?
From: Christopher Hebert <chebert@couchwhite.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 11:45:08 -0700
Christopher Hebert writes,"What I've chosen to do is to warm the sweet cider
to kill residual yeast/bacteria, and let it cool outdoors in the middle of a
field in the hopes that other wild yeasties inoculate the cider, a la lambic
beer.
Unfortunately, for the past two weeks, there has been absolutely no
activity in the airlock. Did I do something wrong? Was it too cold
(about 30 - 40 F here in Upstate NY and it's in my basement at about 50F)?
Should I wait longer? Or, the doomsday scenario, bag the whole thing and
put some "real" yeast in?"
As far as keeping it simple, I find the wild yeast works well with the
addition of
1 cup of raisins and 4 oz. of honey per 5 gal carboy, air locked of coarse.
It seems
that when your cider was warmed to kill off the bacteria the beneficials
were also
wiped out. If you want immediate results pitch in some brewers yeast and
soon it will
begin to boil! good luck.
- -tom
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Weston's Cider
From: "Reynold Tomes" <rtomes@burnsmcd.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:04:52 -0600
Hi group,
I noticed on the CAMRA website that Westons in Herefordshire took Champion =
Cider of the Year honors in 2000 (and 1999). I 'd really like to try some =
of their traditional still cider but our local (Kansas City, Missouri =
U.S.A) distributors and retailers don't carry anthing other than Hardcore =
and Woodchuck. Weston's website indicates that they cannot currently take =
nternational orders. Does anyone know where I can obtain some Weston's =
cider here in the U.S.? Thanks in advance.
Reynold Tomes
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #885
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