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Cider Digest #0866
Subject: Cider Digest #866, 20 June 2000
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #866 20 June 2000
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
What to plant? ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
varietals & blends (Terry Maloney)
Maturing ciders (Andrew Lea)
Selecting varieties (Andrew Lea)
Cideries to visit - Ontario & UK (Peter & Jennifer Goddard)
Cider Producers in Australia? (Peter & Jennifer Goddard)
varieties for small orchard (Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au)
(Tim Steury)
Zymurgy cider article (Dick Dunn)
new subscribers? (Cider Digest)
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Subject: What to plant?
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:22:24 -0700
Having limited experience, this is my put on planning a small cider orchard.
First off, some disclaimers. Our orchard is US Zone 8, a class 3 soil, a
poorly drained loam. We started planting in 1996 and will complete next year
with a total of approximately 1100 trees on M9 and M26 rootstocks. The trees
are trellised and trained on a vertical axis(French Ax, initially a lot of
string and tape to shape the tree). We have one real year of cider
production.
Kingston Black - This was the first variety we planted and are still
planting it. It grows well, provides few problems, and produces a balanced
juice. It needs to be harvested fairly quickly when it is ripe since the
fruit drops and bruises easily. It is not a heavy producer. We may produce
and bottle it as a single variety.
Bulmers Norman - No experience
Yarlington Mill - We planted lots of these, they are fairly gangly trees, do
not seem to be filling there space very well. The fruit is large produces a
rich brown juice, low in acid. This variety is said to tend toward biennial
bearing so it needs to be thinned.
Brown Snout - These have yet to come into production, also said to tend to
biennial bearing. Ours tend to be fairly compact vigorous trees. This is
said to be a nice soft tannin bittersweet.
Dabnett - We planted and are still planting Dabnetts in equal number to the
Yarlingtons. They are a nice tree, fill there space, easy to manage. Like
the Yarlingtons have a thick low acid juice. I think they are a good choice
growing and juice.
Improved Foxwhelp - Not sure if they are Improved. Planted in 2000. We are
looking foreword to having another bittersharp.
Frequin Rouge Amer - No experience.
Michelin - We planted these early on, the tree is easy to manage, a good
producer. The juice is so-so.
Golden Harvey - No experience.
Sweet Coppin - We planted a number of these, to date the results have been
disappointing. They are a gangly tree. What fruit we had was poor quality.
However this years fruit set is heavy so we are looking forward to working
with them. Also said to have a biennial tendency.
To date our major problem is having a sufficient quantity of bittersharp or
sharp apples to keep the PH in the 3.6 to 3.8 range. Our Cox's help and they
are a nice aromatic apple. We had some Browns Apple grafted up, but I think
they are really Brown Snouts. We also have a number of Porters Perfections
coming on line to help in the Bittersharp department. However these apples a
reported to be very prone to biennial bearing. We are thinning these
heavily.
------------------------------
Subject: varietals & blends
From: Terry Maloney <westcounty@attglobal.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:11:21 -0400
I have enjoyed the discussion of blended and varietal ciders. Its
something I can't get enough of.
So far, the Baldwin is the only apple with which we have made a single
variety cider more than once. It makes a balanced cider, and has long
been the apple of choice of cidermakers around here. We just bottled
a single variety Kingston Black from the '98 harvest with the hope that
the tannins would continue to mellow. The next time we will probably
use it in a blend. Our other cider varieties, such as Tremblett's
Bitter and Reine de Pomme, we have just started picking in quantity the
past couple of harvests. They are new tastes for us and we are at the
beginning of learning how to use them. As a single variety cider the
most you can say about them is that they are interesting, but in a blend
it's a different and more apppealing story. What we are doing now is
blending a bitter with a less distinctive apple, such as Golden Russet,
and then naming the cider after the bitter variety. Its not a true
varietal, but the taste is determined mostly by the varietal and
provides a starting point for us and our customers to learn and to
identify varietal flavors. As that understanding develops there will be
a basis for more complex "meritage" blends.
Going variety by variety may seem like inventing the wheel once again.
Certainly the Europeans should know about blending, but the cider
apples grown here in Western Massachusetts are not the same as those
grown in Europe(climate? terroir?. For example the ripening dates are
quite different, and the Tremblett we grow ends up a bittersharp rather
than a bittersweet. And even if the apples were the same, I found the
Spanish and French cidermakers very willing to discuss in detail how
they make their ciders, but their particular mix of apples was top
secret. It was what made their cider the best and they weren't about to
give that out.
I think we are in for some exciting ciders as more cider varieties are
planted and harvested.
- --
West County Hard Cider
PO Box 29
Colrain, MA 01340
413 624 3481
terry@westcountycider.com
www.westcountycider.com
------------------------------
Subject: Maturing ciders
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:44:03 +0100
Chuck Wettergreen asked:
"Anyone have any definitive answers on the shelf life of cider,
especialy naturally fermented, naturally carbonated, unfiltered and
unfined?"
I was mightily surprised when I first started to make my own naturally
conditioned keg and bottled ciders, because much of my professional life
was (and occasionally still is) in working for a cider industry that
puts a 6 - 12 month
maximum shelf life on their product, with the expectation that it's best
about two weeks after bottling. Even our Long Ashton Research Station
experimental and for-sale ciders were in-bottle pasteurised and never
improved on storage (at least from the mid 60's).
But now, after several seasons direct experience, I'm 101% convinced
that under natural conditioning a peak of maturity is achieved in bottle
or self-pressurising keg from 1-2 years later (allowing say an April
bottling from a slow October-started fermentation, it will be twelve
months from the following June before the cider is at its best). After
another year the quality then starts to decline.
The nature of this maturation is of course difficult to define. It's an
increase in smoothness and even in apparent sweetness, a gain in
complexity, the advent of specific 'spicy' notes if bittersweet apples
are used - all the usual things that characterise a maturing wine. Some
of this may be due to malo-lactic change in bottle, some just due to
slow continued metabolism by yeast under stress in anaerobic conditions.
Some may just be simple chemistry. All of it would be tricky to analyze
(a good PhD project, though!!)
But I'm convinced it's for real, both in bottle and keg. And I'm
equally convinced that 99% of people in the mainstream cider industry
haven't a clue what I'm talking about. I didn't, either, until I got to
do the whole process for myself, and I realised what cider could be
rather than what I always thought it was!
Andrew Lea
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Selecting varieties
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:05:56 +0100
Rick Stockdale aked which cider varieties to plant. Based on UK
experience, I would not bother with Bulmers Norman nor Michelin. They
are an orchardist's delight but ferment fast and produce bland and
undistinguished ciders. Best to concentrate on Kingston, Yarlington,
Dabinett, Foxwhelp, Sweet Coppin as the highest quality 'vintage'
varieties. With equal quantities of each of those, perhaps biased
somewhat in favour of the bittersweets Yarlington and Dabinett, you
shouldn't go far wrong. My web page has lists and classifications of
most of these for acid and tannin.
But grow a few of each of the others anyway just to see how they perform
- - after all, Victoria is not the UK and what does well here may not be
best for you.
Andrew Lea,
nr Oxford UK
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Cideries to visit - Ontario & UK
From: Peter & Jennifer Goddard <pwg@ironbark.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:57:19 +1000
We're off on a visit to Ontario & England (mainly South West)
in the near future. While we will not have lots of time
free, I'd appreciate any suggestions as to cider producers
and, particularly, cider orchards we might visit.
Thanks,
Peter Goddard <p.goddard@latrobe.edu.au>
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Producers in Australia?
From: Peter & Jennifer Goddard <pwg@ironbark.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:51:13 +1000
We've been trying to find commercial (?) cider
producers in Australia. I'd appreciate a note of any small
or large producers, together with any comments on what their
produce is like. So far, we've only found a couple. If I get
some responses, I'll summarise back to this list.
Thanks,
Peter Goddard <p.goddard@latrobe.edu.au>
------------------------------
Subject: varieties for small orchard
From: Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:10:56 +1000
Subject: Re: Request for advice for new orchard plantings
From: Rick Stockdale <ricks@rok.com.au>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:01:03 +1000
Rick and Marie Stockdale enquired about planting a small orchard and listed the
planned varieties. One consideration is the flowering times which are one aspect
of ensuring adequate pollination. These are as follows for the listed varieties
(taken from Morgan and Richards Book of Apples):
Kingston Black - mid season
Bulmers Norman - early/mid season
Yarlington Mill - mid season
Brown Snout - late
Dabnett - mid season
Improved Foxwhelp - not specifically listed
Frequin Rouge Amer - not specifically listed
Michelin - mid season
Golden Harvey - not specifically listed
Sweet Coppin - mid season
There are others more expert than I am, but as I understand it, along with
flowering times the capacity for the tree to be self pollinating or requiring
another pollinator is important. Not counting the three varieties for which I
don't have any info to hand, most of your chosen trees being mid season I guess
would not present a problem, but having anearly variety and one late you would
need to be certain they are able to be adequately pollinated. If a variety
cannot self-pollinate I do not know whether another tree of the same variety
would do, or if you would need another variety in flower at the same time.
Someone with more expertise on this list would be able to answer, and I know
ther are people on this list with considerable expertise in this area.
I note you are not intending to include Stoke Red which figured prominently in
the recent discussion about varietal ciders.
Best wishes with your small farm gate cidery. Keep us posted of your progress,
and I'll make it a port of call in future trips down your way when it is up and
running.
Rod
------------------------------
Subject:
From: Tim Steury <steury@wsu.edu>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:36:10 -0700
We are headed north to British Columbia later this summer and would like to
visit whatever cideries we can find. Would anyone have suggestions,
particularly within the area between the Alberta border and the Okanagan?
Tim Steury
Universe magazine
Ask Dr. Universe (www.wsu.edu/DrUniverse)
Washington State University
Pullman, WA 99164-1040
------------------------------
Subject: Zymurgy cider article
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 20 Jun 00 22:25:48 MDT (Tue)
Latest issue of _Zymurgy_ (magazine of the American Homebrewer's
Association) has an article on cider by Paul Correnty and Charlie
Olchowski. It's a few pages, nothing new or startling, but it is
a good short introduction to cider-making written for homebrewers.
I don't mean that as a put-down; I think it's just about right for
the _Zymurgy_ audience--people who are generally capable of making
and understanding good fermented beverages, but who aren't yet up
to fussing over whether Dabinett is suitable for a single-varietal
cider. It's just about the right length and level of detail to get
someone making good cider--not so short as to oversimplify, nor so
long as to put people off with complexity.
I do sort of regret the line above the title on the first page:
"Welcome to cider, the softer side of homebrewing!"
???softer?!?
Anyway, it's "New Cider House Rules", in _Zymurgy_, V.23, #4 (Jul-
Aug 2000).
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.
------------------------------
Subject: new subscribers?
From: cider@raven.talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: 20 Jun 00 22:27:02 MDT (Tue)
Anybody out there have any guess why we just got over a dozen new sub-
scribers to the digest, all in one day? That number is small relative
to the total size of the digest, but statistically unusual.
(No, it wasn't because of the _Zymurgy_ article, at least not as far as I
can find.)
- ---
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #866
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