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Cider Digest #0838
Subject: Cider Digest #838, 6 December 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #838 6 December 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #837, 1 December 1999 (Terence L Bradshaw)
RE: Cider Digest #837, 1 December 1999 ("Orr, Keith")
Re: Cyanide in Seeds? (Cindy Renfrow)
Why unpasteurized Cider? (Matthew Comstock)
Cyanide in apple pips (Andrew Lea)
Scab in apples (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #837, 1 December 1999
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@quest-net.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:33:36 -0500
>Subject: Should I sterilize windfalls?
>From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
>My Yellow Bellflower overloaded itself with fruit and broke a main branch
>this summer :-<. But, it did not die, because it was still attached to
>the tree with a strip of bark! The apples ripened, even though several
>were lying on the ground, partially buried in leaves. Now I have picked
>all of the apples, including those that were lying on the ground or in the
>(slimy) leaves. I would like to use all of these for juice - the sweet
>cider is excellent! I plan to freeze most of the juice after pressing,
>although I may try pasteurizing some to see if it affects the flavour.
>Should I sterilize these apples before grinding? If so, how? Or is simply
>washing them good enough?
I see no reason to "sterilize" your apples prior to pressing, and in fact
question how you would even do so short of a 30-minute chlorine soak
(blechh!). Many of the apples I use in my cider are windfalls, some even
in grazed areas with cow or horse patties sprinkled about. I would not
serve a commercial sweet cider made from said apples, but the magic of
fermentation will kill off any pathenogenic bacteria (E.coli 0157:H7) that
may have existed in the juice. I should point out now that I do not use
fruit that have feces directly on them, but just rolling through the grass
is a vector for said bacteria. If you plan to sulfite the must before
fermentation there should be no need for complicated washing procedures: a
good rinsing with a hose and sorting out of nasty ones while loading them
in the grinder should suffice.
As a matter of fact I used the apples collected in the pasture orchards
descibed above, pressed on a twenty-year old press which has NEVER been
sterilized, fermented without any adjuncts (including sulfites, cultured
yeasts, etc.) in glass carboys and a 55 gallon juice concentrate barrel.
Some folks on the list would cringe at this, but since I've started using
exclusively natural yeasts and unmanaged apples, my cider has turned out
much, much better. I want to stress that the yeasts which I believe are
doing the fermenting are present on the press and racks primarily, which is
the reason for not sterilizing them. I also must say that said press has
three open-topped 400 gallon vinegar vats directly behind it. Am I worried
about acetification in my cider? No, because I do not allow oxygen into
the cycle.
Now onto the scab question:
>Subject: Scab
>From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:09:20 -0800
>Have been reading a lot lately about apple diseases, and realized that I am
>located in an area (coastal California) where apple scab is a frequent
>problem. Checking over my apples, I find quite a few that appear to have
>suffered scab damage.
>My question is, does this have any effect on the use of these apples for
>cider, either sweet or hard? I have pressed out several gallons already
>and am drinking some of it - the Yellow Bellflower makes a really good
>sweet cider, by the way - so I would like to know if the scab fungus is
>likely to affect the cider (or the drinker) in any way.
>My working hypothesis is that scab is not likely to affect the juice or the
>cider, because of the life cycle of the fungus. It affects the surface of
>the fruit and leaves during prolonged wet periods in late spring, then
>overwinters in leaves waiting for the next spring. Doesn't attack the
>interior of the fruit at all.
>Does anyone know for sure?
Good job in looking up the life cycle apple scab. Now for what it does to
your trees and cider.
Apple scab (Venturia inequalis) is a very important and economically
devastating disease in nearly all parts in which apples are grown. In my
are (Northeast, Vermont specifically) it is the #1 pest management priority
of commercial growers. Its primary damage is done by reducing the cosmetic
value of the fruit. This has no effect on the fruit's cider qualities
whatsoever. The other effect it can have is a general weakening of the
tree resulting in reduced yield, slower growth, and possibly a reduced
lifespan. Should you start spraying Captan willy-nilly over your trees?
Absolutely not! Apple trees will do fine without spraying, generally,
especially large, established ones. The fruit you get may be scabby and
wormy, but it will also be free of spray residue. I am not against
spraying- I am a commercial orchard manager myself and tend to many
client's home trees. I just do not feel that harsh chemicals belong in
people's backyards applied by less-than-well-trained applicators. Just
like a good deer rifle, pesticides (organic and inorganic) are an important
tool in wildife management, but they must be used with respect. Especially
in California.
So I would use your scabby apples with abandon, and if you are really
interested in maitaining a spray program on your trees, learn the facts as
you have wisely done with apple scab. Any further questions on pest
biology will be happily answered.
Terry B
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service University of Vermont Apple Team
PO Box 258, Chelsea, VT 05038 122 Hills Building
(802)685-3412 Burlington, VT 05402
madshaw@quest-net.com (802)656-0490
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #837, 1 December 1999
From: "Orr, Keith" <ORR@trans.ci.portland.or.us>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:41:05 -0800
This is the Address for DSM which is what Gist-Brocades has become. They
could probably get the Klercidre here if you asked.
Keith Orr
USA DSM Food Specialties
Oak Hill Business Park
8848-C, Red Oak Boulevard
Charlotte, NC 28217 TEL. +1 704 5279000 or
+1 800 4381361
FAX +1 704 5278184
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cyanide in Seeds?
From: Cindy Renfrow <cindy@thousandeggs.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:19:52 -0500
Hi Tim!
The fact is that apple seeds (and seeds of peach, cherry, apricot, pear,
plum, and citrus fruit) contain small amounts of hydrocyanic acid. For
peach the concentration is 2% to 4%. The poison is released when the pits
are crushed.
"Dworkin" on MLD quotes "Suicide and Attempted Suicide", by Geo Stone as
saying apples contain about "0.6 mg hydrogen cyanide (HCN) per gram of dry
seed. Since the lethal dose of HCN is estimated to be about 50 mg, you need
around 85 grams (3 ounces) of dry seeds" to kill yourself. (Stone also
claims the poison will dissipate if the solution is exposed to air.)
IIRC, John Kingsbury's "Poisonous Plants of the US and Canada" cited the
example of the only documented death of a human from eating apple seeds. A
grown man ate a cupful of toasted apple seeds in one sitting & died of
cyanide poisoning.
Some older recipes for cherry wine instruct us to crush the pits to add a
little "kick" to the wine. Apples presses don't chop up the seeds the way
your disposal does. If the juice smells or tastes of almonds you're
getting some cyanide released into the juice. You can have a sample tested
if you're worried. But a cupful of seeds diluted in 11 gallons of cider
probably won't hurt you.
Regarding your windfall apples -- do you have deer in your yard? --have
your dogs s--t near the tree? I'd discard any damaged apples, & wash the
rest of the drops in a weak bleach solution, & then rinse in clean water.
Warmest Regards,
Cindy
Cindy Renfrow
cindy@thousandeggs.com
Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th
Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing
Recipes"
http://www.thousandeggs.com -- please come visit my new web site!
------------------------------
Subject: Why unpasteurized Cider?
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:50:50 -0800 (PST)
Greetings.
Bottled my first batch of cider last night. It was a breeze of a
batch. I simply boiled 2.5 pounds of honey in a gallon of water for a
couple minutes and added it to 4 gallons chilled, store-bought, Indian
Summer apple juice. Blasphemy? The Juice was preservative free and
had ascorbic acid added, but was not a 'made from concentrate' juice.
But it was pasteurized. I often see recipes where people make a point
of using "unpasteurized" juice or cider. I was looking at a low
gravity cider and I pitched a couple packs of Nottingham. After a
short lag time and a couple days of fairly active of fermentation the
stuff kept bubbling slowly for about two weeks. The stuff going in the
bottles last night tasted great. Anyway, could someone point out the
difference between using pasteurized or unpasteurized juice -
especially where I am trying to avoid spontaneous fermentation by using
*my own* choice of yeast. Preservative free seems more important.
Thanks for the info and sorry if I've asked an oft repeated question -
just signed on.
Matt Comstock in Cincinnati
------------------------------
Subject: Cyanide in apple pips
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 21:17:38 +0000
Tim Bray asked about the cyanide present in apple pips (which comes from
the breakdown of a glucoside called amygdalin). The only data I can
find puts the level at about 1 part per million - trivially small! It
is much higher in kernels from apricots and almonds. Indeed there is an
official European limit on the cyanide present in almond paste which I
think runs at 50 parts per million. So absolutely nothing to worry about
in apples or cider!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford UK.
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.f9.co.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Scab in apples
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 21:24:16 +0000
Tim Bray asked about the effect of apple scab on cider. In my
experience it has no effect (unless so severe that the trees are
defoliated, of course!). A lot of traditional cider Pomonas have
pictures of fruit showing typical symptoms e.g. see picture of Foxwhelp
from the 19th century Herefordshire Pomona at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/scab.jpg
It could even be argued that some infections stimulate the fruit to
produce flavourful secondary metabolites to fight the organisms and may
therefore even benefit the cider!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.f9.co.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #838
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