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Cider Digest #0837
Subject: Cider Digest #837, 1 December 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #837 1 December 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #836, 25 November 1999 (CLYDECIDER@aol.com)
Re: From never fermenting to Commercial Production (phil sides jr)
Keeving - magic enzyme (Andrew Lea)
'Inverting' added sugar (Andrew Lea)
What french cider should I buy? (Kevin Cummins)
Re: Cyanide in Seeds? (Tim Bray)
Should I sterilize windfalls? (Tim Bray)
Scab (Tim Bray)
Strange crud gowing on my cider. (Chad Petersen)
Malolactic Fermentation (Rcapshew@aol.com)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #836, 25 November 1999
From: CLYDECIDER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:23:13 EST
Hi Phil,
In reply to your questions about your friend starting his own cidermill, we
own a small one here in CT. It was started 118 years ago by my great
grandfather. We make hard ciders and some apple wines. The first thing your
friend needs to do is see if his town allows the production of alcohol where
he wants to start his business, then move on to the state level and see what
he need to do to obtain a state license to make his hard cider, THEN he must
obtain FEDERAL permission from the Bureau of Alcohol, tobacco and Firearms.
That permit will allow him to become a federally bonded winery. Then he can
start making his produce to sell. It's quite a lot of paper work on all
levels but not impossible for the lay person to do. When my husband took over
my family business it took us
about 9 months to do all the paper work and have it all approved. I can seem
like endless paperwork but just take one page at a time. Wish him lots of
luck and hope he is successful.
Best of luck Annette.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: From never fermenting to Commercial Production
From: phil sides jr <psides@carl.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 01:31:51 -0500
>In short, we need your help. What can i as the homebrewer do to help Ed
the
>Most?
Phil,
This evening, I picked up what seems to be a terriffic book and I have
just put it down long enough to read and respond to email. It is called
"Cider Hard and Sweet" by Ben Watson. I understand Ben lives near me
(in New Hampshire) but I have not yet figured out how to contact him. I
am in the process of researching for a upcoming writing project of my
own and I hope to be able to chat with him soon. I found the book at my
local Borders
http://search.borders.com/fcgi-bin/db2www/search/search.d2w/
Details?&mediaType=Book&prodID=51431766
and I just found out it was cheaper online than in the store but in my
opinion, this book is worth twice the price I paid. I think this book
would be a great place to start.
The 'other' Phil
Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost!
------------------------------
Subject: Keeving - magic enzyme
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 09:38:53 +0000
Tim Bray asked about the 'magic enzyme' and whether it was available in
the US.
This enzyme is NOT the same as a normal pectic enzyme preparation and is
almost certainly unavailable in the USA. To the best of my knowledge its
only application is in the French cider industry and it has been
developed especially for that use. The key feature is that it's a
pectin methyl esterase WITHOUT any polygalacturonase activity - if the
latter is present (as in normal pectic enzymes) then the juice will
clarify but will not keeve because a calcium pectate clot will not
form. The enzyme is made by Gist-Brocades and is available commercially
as Klercidre from Standa Industrie in Caen, Normandy
standa@mail.cpod.fr
www.standa-fr.com (oddly in their 'sanitation products' list!)
Roy and I bought a new supply this season direct from them. I did all my
transactions by e-mail (in French tho I expect they will understand
English). It was 540 FF plus tax plus carriage for enough to treat 7000
litres. This also included 5 kg of calcium chloride. If you ask the
price of shipping Klercidre overseas then make sure you specify that
you only need the enzyme and not the food grade calcium chloride which
you can probably buy more cheaply locally
and without the carriage charges.
I'll leave Roy to discuss whether or not the enzyme has an
effect in his case. I did a 'with' and 'without' small scale test on my
last week's pressing (both with added calcium chloride) and it certainly
has a marked benefit on clot formation. The theory of the addition is
that the enzyme is
naturally present in apple juice but at variable and unpredictable
levels, so its
addition is to 'guarantee' success. In my experience so far with it
over a couple of seasons, it does not work especially well on
early-season acid juices, but on my main-season juices with pH 3.8 or
above, it works more successfully. However that may also be because
those juices have higher pectin levels, and a certain 'critical mass' of
soluble pectin is necessary before the keeving will work. I think it
also may need a minimum gravity of ca 1.060 before the 'chapeau brun'
will float - obviously in a less dense juice the laws of physics
dictate that it may sink.
Anyone who's bemused by all the above and wants to know what 'keeving'
is, please look at Part 4 of my Science of Cidermaking (website URL
below)and Roy Bailey's page at
http://www.westberks.demon.co.uk/lvcider/index.htm
Andrew Lea
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.f9.co.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: 'Inverting' added sugar
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 09:27:51 +0000
Rod McDonald said:
I
> seem to recall the desirability of boiling the sucrose with a little
> citric acid so as to convert it into an invert sugar, which I think is
> supposed to be more easily fermented than plain old sucrose.
This is textbook stuff which is 99% an old wives tale - plain wrong in
other words! In THEORY sucrose is not fermentable and needs to be split
into its component sugars of glucose (old name dextrose)
and fructose (old name laevulose) before the yeast can ferment it
(nearly all yeasts can ferment both these simple sugars but they usually
prefer to start on one or the other). But IN PRACTICE the pH of cider
is low enough that chemical 'inversion' of sucrose to glucose and
fructose happens during the course of fermentation anyway AND the yeasts
(and fresh juice?) contain an invertase enzyme which also does the job
in a matter of seconds.
I've never heard of any cider maker who had a problem with added sucrose
failing to ferment in this way. In theory it might happen, but in
practice it never does! Anyone know otherwise?
Andrew Lea
PS thanks to Phil Wilcox for his nice comments about my website. I just
wish I had more time to get it updated! But
please note the correct URL's as below - what Phil gave you was just a
left hand navigation frame which isn't so helpful!
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.f9.co.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: What french cider should I buy?
From: Kevin Cummins <kcummins@u.washington.edu>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:20:19 -0800 (PST)
Dear fellow cider friends and strangers,
I am currently living in Paris and looking to buy some *good* cider to
celebrate the year 2000. Do any of you more learned and experienced cider
consumers have any strong recommendations for me? Any must trys before
going back to the states?
Although I have been experimenting with different ciders, I would
appreciate your advice. By the way, I like both dry, wine-like cider and
sweeter versions of the beverage. Feel free to contact me personally
you do not wish to post to the entire group.
Cheers!
Kevin
kcummins@u.washington.edu
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cyanide in Seeds?
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:59:22 -0800
Someone posted to the Mead Lover's Digest about the risk of cyanide
poisoning from apple seeds. This was the basis for a recommendation to
core apples before grinding them. Now, in all of the material I have read
about cider, I can't remember ever seeing such a recommendation before.
Warnings about seeds potentially causing off flavors, yes, but health
effects? Does anyone have the facts about this?
I am particularly interested because I have just built a Yellman-style
grinder from a kitchen garbage disposal and used it to grind my apples; I
now have about 12 gallons of sweet cider (oops, make that 11 gallons -
already drank one! :->) and am starting fermentation with 5 gallons of it.
The disposal-grinder breaks many of the seeds open, potentially releasing
the cyanide. I can't imagine the concentration in cider being high enough
to kill you, or even make you sick, but I would like to see some factual
data if there are any.
Thanks,
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Should I sterilize windfalls?
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:15:33 -0800
My Yellow Bellflower overloaded itself with fruit and broke a main branch
this summer :-<. But, it did not die, because it was still attached to
the tree with a strip of bark! The apples ripened, even though several
were lying on the ground, partially buried in leaves. Now I have picked
all of the apples, including those that were lying on the ground or in the
(slimy) leaves. I would like to use all of these for juice - the sweet
cider is excellent! I plan to freeze most of the juice after pressing,
although I may try pasteurizing some to see if it affects the flavour.
Should I sterilize these apples before grinding? If so, how? Or is simply
washing them good enough?
Thanks,
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Scab
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:09:20 -0800
Have been reading a lot lately about apple diseases, and realized that I am
located in an area (coastal California) where apple scab is a frequent
problem. Checking over my apples, I find quite a few that appear to have
suffered scab damage.
My question is, does this have any effect on the use of these apples for
cider, either sweet or hard? I have pressed out several gallons already
and am drinking some of it - the Yellow Bellflower makes a really good
sweet cider, by the way - so I would like to know if the scab fungus is
likely to affect the cider (or the drinker) in any way.
My working hypothesis is that scab is not likely to affect the juice or the
cider, because of the life cycle of the fungus. It affects the surface of
the fruit and leaves during prolonged wet periods in late spring, then
overwinters in leaves waiting for the next spring. Doesn't attack the
interior of the fruit at all.
Does anyone know for sure?
Thanks again,
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Strange crud gowing on my cider.
From: Chad Petersen <Chad.Petersen@wwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:58:19 -0800
Hello all! I have made a few batches of cider and a cyser as well as
numerous batches of all grain beer. I am no stranger to fermenting things,
but this one batch of cider I have going seems questionable. I was in a
hurry and I did all the wrong things. I didn't do the potassium
metabisulphate, I didn't check my O.G.. When I did check it, it seemed
alright, but the gravity had dropped down to 1 in a matter of 4 weeks! I
decided to slow things down a bit, I added a few pounds of sugar boiled in a
quart of water and dumped that in, then I put it in a fairly cool place to
finish up a bit more slowly. I checked it last week and there were brown
patches beginning to spread across the top. Not big old hairy ones, but
enough to concern me. I tasted it and it seemed ok, a bit lacking in
flavor, but not "bad". Have any ofyou experienced this and if so is it a
write off? My heart will not be broken as it is only a 2.5 gallon batch
------------------------------
Subject: Malolactic Fermentation
From: Rcapshew@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:37:23 EST
My cider has greatly improved following
malolactic fermentations that typically occur
over the winter. I was wondering if anyone
has encouraged this fermentation by the use
of commercial malolactic cultures that are sold
by wine supply stores? Also can one speed
up the malolactic fermentation by chilling cider?
Bob Capshew
Southern Indiana
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #837
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