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Cider Digest #0808
Subject: Cider Digest #808, 5 May 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #808 5 May 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE: Cider Digest #807, 29 April 1999 ("McDonald, Rod")
Time to fine? (David Johnson)
Cider Digest #805, 20 April 1999 (Dave Burley)
Cider Storage (Andrew Lea)
A plea for proper descriptors! (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: RE: Cider Digest #807, 29 April 1999
From: "McDonald, Rod" <Rod.McDonald@isr.gov.au>
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:48:18 +1000
Lise from
Adelaide South Australia
wrote:
> 3 weeks later it is not fit for drinking. I know that the
> cider will taste
> better the longer I leave it - but when can I start to enjoy
> it?
I haven't made cider from a kit - I presume there would have been sugar
added as with kit beer. Is the kit actually a cider apple concentrate? As
for how long it takes, one lesson I have learnt over the years (has it
really been THAT long?) is that the 'drink by' dates on kits are irrelevant.
I have never had a beer or other kit that was even passable by the supposed
date it is drinkable - usually it hasn't even finished carbonating in the
bottle by then. They usually say from between 2 and 4 weeks, I usually don't
venture into the first test (of both fizz and flavour) until at least 8
weeks for beer and even longer for cider.
I have the same base to work with but I intend
> to include a
> sachet of dry amylase to give the cider a dry flavour.
I haven't had any difficulty fermenting to zero or even less than zero and
getting an adequate dry flavour (personally, I don't really like sweet all
that much anyway). I presume you are using a hydrometer? If you are and it
is fermenting right out and still leaving a residual sweetness I would be
wondering if there is any sweetening additive (such as some form of
glycerine compound) in the kit to start with. I am not familiar with dry
amylase - sounds like something you might use in Lager. If so is the
chemistry appropriate to cider I wonder?
I have also been told that only
> dessert apples are
> around if I want to start from scratch.
There you go - a research project to track down cider varieties in SA. We
already know of such varieties in Vic, NSW and the ACT. Perhaps David
Pickering from Orange who also subscribes here might know of a South
Australian grower?
>
> Sorry for the long post. Appreciate any helpful comments.
It wasn't all that long actually. Best wishes, keep us posted and don't
give up yet!!
Rod
------------------------------
Subject: Time to fine?
From: David Johnson <dmjalj@inwave.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:57:10 -0500
It appears that I am going to have to fine one of last falls batches of
cider. This batch started with a OG of 1.058 and a pH of 3.4. I added 70
ppm of camden tabs and let it ferment spontaneously. It formed a layer
of white scum on top which I think was an early wild yeast. I was able
to rack out from underneath it and the fermentation proceeded normally
except it hasn't cleared. My guess is this is a wild yeast that refuses
to settle out. After fermentation appeared to stop, I put this batch
into cold storage (45-50 deg. F). It cleared some. I would like to
prime and bottle this batch for early consumption (I am a little nervous
about it's stability). I plan to add one of the "killer" wine yeasts as
a bottling strain. I feel I should fine this before bottling but wonder
what I should use. I have gelatin on hand and would have to get anything
else. I would also need instructions on anything (including gelatin) I
would use.
Thanks,
Dave Johnson
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Digest #805, 20 April 1999
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:34:29 -0400
Ciderfolks,
After his first sample of cider,Gabi Lehrl loses the fruity taste of his
cider which he stores in 50 l Aluminum pressure barrels.
It wasn't clear from your note if the cider was under pressure of CO2
<before> you tapped the first glass or not. If not, then I suggest you
keep the cider under CO2 from the beginning and push out the first glass,
as the oxygen drawn in from the first may be causing the loss of
fruitiness. Oxygen often plays that role.
The other thing is that the "roughness" you are referring to may be from a
separate cause. I wonder if the pressure vessel is actually aluminum or if
it is stainless steel? If aluminum, this may be dissolving to a small
extent in the cider over time and causing a taste change. Try getting a
pressurizable Stainless Steel vessel from your local soft drink beverage
supplier and using that. Be sure to replace all the rubber rings with new
ones or you will get a bad taste form the previous contents. If there is a
difference after using this vessel or if the vessel you are now using
shows some etching, then I would suspect that as the problem.
As an aside, when transferring cider to a vessel that is pressurizable,
fill the vessel to the top with cool boiled water, and push out the water
with CO2. This will get the majority of the oxygen out of the vessel. Put
the transfer hose all the way to tthe bottom of the vessel and, as it
fills, no oxygen will get in. Also with beverages which have a pH less that
3.3 or so add 30 ppm of metabisulfite to act as an antioxidant. This
should help stabilize against oxidation.
Dave Burley
Dave_Burley@compuserve.com
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Storage
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@csi.com>
Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 08:24:14 +0100
Gabi's cider storage is a problem to understand. If it starts to taste
'like scrumpy' that could be an acetobacter infection, which would
increase the volatile acidity and ethyl acetate levels. Yet it's always
blanketed with CO2, which means that shouldn't happen. Measuring acid
levels (and checking if they go up, down, or neither, would be one way to
investigate the problem systematically.
Andrew Lea
------------------------------
Subject: A plea for proper descriptors!
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@csi.com>
Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 08:25:21 +0100
I don't want to sound picky here, but when people describe their flavour
problems on the Digest, it would be really helpful if they could try to
use semi-objective flavour descriptors. Not necessarily the sort of
verbosity that professional wine-writers use, but just a few simple
words like acid, sweet, vinegary, musty or whatever! Merely to say it
doesn't taste good, without defining it, gives no clues to anybody who
might be trying to help.
After all, who defines what is good? Lise just said "> 3 weeks later it
is not fit for drinking". No doubt that's what she feels, but we really
need to know why she feels that. Perhaps she's fermented out a really
dry cider and wants a sweet one, or conversely, perhaps the kit is
artificially sweetened and she would like it drier.
I'll hope to put some cider flavour descriptors used by the UK National
Association of Cidermakers (in the cider flavour wheel) on my web site
some time and I'll make a note via the Digest when I've done that.
BTW, adding an amylase to cider will have no effect on its sweetness.
Cider isn't beer, it's a fruit wine, and there are no maltodextrins for
an amylase to get to work on!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.oxfordonline.co.uk/cider OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #808
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