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Cider Digest #0840
Subject: Cider Digest #840, 16 December 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #840 16 December 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #838, 6 December 1999 (Warren Place)
Sweetening & buying trees (Fritz Stuneck)
precocious fruiting (Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au)
RE: Cider Digest #839, 10 December 1999 ("Brian Lundeen - F102")
Re: Scab, cyanide, etc. (Tim Bray)
Correction about Black and Fagen (Kevin Sprague)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #838, 6 December 1999
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 22:40:21 -0800 (PST)
> Should you start spraying Captan willy-nilly over your trees?
> Absolutely not! Apple trees will do fine without spraying, generally,
> especially large, established ones. The fruit you get may be scabby and
> wormy, but it will also be free of spray residue.
Do you mean that worms are not a problem for cider either? My
parents have nearly 100 apple trees but due to a "retirement" state of
mind on the part of my father and an apple maggot infestation these apples
just fatten the local deer population. Can I press these for cider?
Warren Place
------------------------------
Subject: Sweetening & buying trees
From: Fritz Stuneck <fritzs@minn.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 99 09:03:18 -0600
Hi all from Minnesota. Two questions:
I also have about 18 gals of cider fermented out to dryness and am
wondering about the sweetening process. One case recently bottled had
1/2 tsp of sugar added for the carbonation, but what about the taste? Is
this stuff gonna taste ok in a few months or what? Anyone had luck in
stopping the process before fermentation ended, maybe up around 1.010
someplace? Or higher?
Anyone in the upper Midwest (MN, MI, WI, ND, etc) have a list of sources
for cider apple trees?
Anyone tried making cider out of APPLE-PEARs????? Can they be found in
Michigan?
Have a nice Christmas all!
Reply to:fritzs@minn.net
Member MN Genealogy Society researching Stuneck, Zdunek, Hoffman, Porter,
Danner, Minnich, Ruth, Ludwig, Petersen.
------------------------------
Subject: precocious fruiting
From: Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:11:33 +1100
Has anyone on this list had an experience like this?
The winter before last I ventured into grafting cider apple varieties onto M9
M26 and M27 rootstock. I had a tolerably OK success rate, and through the course
of last summer the successful grafts grew to fairly decent 1yo whips, around 3
to 4 foot high. This spring about two thirds of them flowered and they are now
setting fruit. I was expecting at least 3 to 4 years before seeing the first
fruit.
Even more interesting is the graft that I did early this spring, onto the
rootstock of a previous year graft that did not take. The piece of scion wood
about 8 inches long came came to life as expected but it put forth a bunch of
flowers as well as leaves. These flowers have now set fruit!
I now await autumn to see, smell and taste the first few cider apples from these
very young trees.
Rod
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #839, 10 December 1999
From: "Brian Lundeen - F102" <blundeen@rrc.mb.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:12:11 -0600
> From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 20:13:28 +0000
>
> ..... except that in recent years, in very warm climates such
> as Spain,
> Southern Italy and Australia, pre-fermentation oxidative
> browning (PFOB)
> or 'hyperoxidation' has become very popular as your correspondent
> suggests. It's a technique to minimise the post-fermentation browning
> which has often bedogged white wines from these areas and
> made them less
> favoured than wines from more temperate zones. This is done as soon as
> the juice is expressed from the fruit because the active PPO
> (polyphenoloxidase) enzyme must be present for this to work. Browning
> proceeds apace and the brown products precipitate out during
> fermentation and at racking. The result (if done properly!)
> is a light coloured wine with no further tendency to
> oxidative browning.
(Note to Dick: You may want to move this back to the MLD as my comments
relate to mead not cider).
First of all, thank you for coming up with the correct term for this
process. PFOB sounds silly but it was preferable to typing out
pre-fermentation oxidative browning several times in the text.
The comment about the necessity of the PPO enzyme for this process to work
is an interesting one. I originally mentioned this with regard to mead, and
I am wondering if this enzyme would be present in a pure honey must. If not,
would this mean that the desired effect of precipitating oxidized compounds
would not take place, and you could end up with an oxidized mead? I tend to
think this would not happen, as the yeast would use up this introduced oxyen
during their growth phase and would therefore not cause any long terms
oxidation effects. Thus, the introduction of oxygen could lessen the lag
time as it does in a beer wort, but may not have the additional beneficial
effects as seen in white (grape) wines.
Although I already snipped it, you mentioned that this technique could cause
a reduction in the fruity character of wines, which in a Riesling for
example, may not be desirable. Could you expand a bit on how the
hyperoxidation process reduces the fruity character of a wine?
Cheers
Brian
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Scab, cyanide, etc.
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:18:27 -0800
Thanks to all who responded to my questions - the information was very
helpful.
I decided not to try sterilizing the apples that had lain in the duff -
just washed them well in clean water. We are now drinking the juice with
no apparent ill effects.
As I suspected, the cyanide concentrations (thanks Andrew and Cindy!) are
too low to be of concern, and probably get reduced even further by aeration
during the pressing. So I will not worry about that either.
Scab I will only worry about as it affects the health of my trees. The
varieties that are currently producing in my orchard are, by definition,
not susceptible to major damage, because the trees are all more than 100
years old and still pretty healthy. The problem is, I have only been able
to get IDs on two of the five different varieties (Yellow Bellflower and
Winter Banana). I am planting about 40 more varieties, mostly cider
apples, and will just have to see how they handle the scab.
Terry Bradshaw said, among other very helpful information:
> Apple trees will do fine without spraying, generally,
>especially large, established ones. The fruit you get may be scabby and
>wormy, but it will also be free of spray residue.
They will be scabby but not wormy - we are apparently blessed with a
climate that does not support codling moth, and I haven't seen any sign of
other worms either. I don't think we will be trying to market the apples
for table fruit, so the scab damage doesn't bother me unless it bothers the
trees. If I never have to spray, I will be a happy man!
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Correction about Black and Fagen
From: Kevin Sprague <spraguek@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:18:10 -0500
I just wanted to forward a note I received "from the horse's mouth so to
speak:
Hi Kevin. I just read yours in the Cider Digest and thought I should
correct a couple of misstatements in your posting. Actually, we
ourselves make our own cider under our own license in Alpine Township,
from cider preseed at my direction at Hill Bros Orchards. We never had
Paw Paw make our cider, although ,in the first year of Black and Fagan we
did produce our cider under license of Fenn Valley Wineries in
Fennville. We have never worked with Paw Paw, ever.
Sorry for any mis-information.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #840
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