Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #0863
Subject: Cider Digest #863, 27 May 2000
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #863 27 May 2000
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Fermenting bittersweets ("David Matthews")
"varietals" and blends (Dick Dunn)
Cider Books ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Research Results? ("Roger Flanders")
Re: Honey and pruning pears (Ian Merwin)
Country Inn. . . (NLSteve@aol.com)
Blending Bittersweet Ciders (Andrew Lea)
Glass vs PET for Natural Conditioning?? (Andrew Lea)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available for anonymous FTP at
ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/cider.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Fermenting bittersweets
From: "David Matthews" <1bethan@talk21.com>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 21:15:42 +0100
Andrew Lea,
You should know better! You wrote:
`Nobody in their right mind makes single variety bitter-sweet ciders,`
and
`And before anyone tells me that there are a number of purportedly
single variety bittersweet ciders springing up on the UK market right
now - get real, people!! You think these guys haven`t heard of malic and
citric acid from a bag, and glucose from a tanker??`
Well, I`ve just rung Kevin Minchew, one of England`s most decorated
craft cider makers. He makes single variety ciders from Somerset
Redstreak, Yarlington Mill, Sheeps Snout, Riennes de Hative, Dabinett
and Tremletts Bitter. They are all superb, he uses no additives, and he
never has any problems with bacterial infections.
I hope that you were referring to the single variety industrial ciders
currently available, that have no varietal fruit character and are
little more than marketing ploys.
Either way, when you meet Kevin at his yard on May 19th (in the company
of Roy Bailey and Cider Digest`s very own Dick Dunn), you`ll see exactly
what I mean.
All you Americans, go for it with single varietal bittersweets! Don`t
use any additives, and just make sure that all your containers are
air-tight and well topped up. There are some fantastic flavours to be
discovered. Unbalanced? No more so than a red wine made from only Merlot
grapes. Less compex than a traditional blended cider, but so what?
Cheers,
Dave Matthews, Editor CAMRA`s Good Cider Guide
------------------------------
Subject: "varietals" and blends
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 25 May 00 23:55:06 MDT (Thu)
I'm abusing my inside track as janitor slightly, in order to reply to an
article in the same digest issue, but Dave Matthews' article (preceding)
(a) got delayed due to technical problems, (b) was sort of pointed at me...
and I don't want to string out the discussion unnecessarily.
I was lucky enough to visit several small cideries in Gloucestershire and
Somerset last week, and to talk with some cider-makers.
Dave wrote:
> Well, I`ve just rung Kevin Minchew, one of England`s most decorated
> craft cider makers. He makes single variety ciders from Somerset
> Redstreak, Yarlington Mill, Sheeps Snout, Riennes de Hative, Dabinett
> and Tremletts Bitter. They are all superb, he uses no additives, and he
> never has any problems with bacterial infections.
...
> ...when you meet Kevin at his yard on May 19th (in the company
> of Roy Bailey and Cider Digest`s very own Dick Dunn), you`ll see exactly
> what I mean.
Five of us did indeed descend upon Kevin that afternoon
* Roy Bailey, who is the proprietor of Lambourn Valley Cider in
Berkshire and is also a subscriber and sometime contributor here, and
who set up the Friday expedition (which also included Hartland)
* Andrew Lea, who needs no introduction to this digest
* myself
* my wife Diane
* a friend (Charlie Price) who is the backup digest-janitor.
Kevin kindly opened and poured a rather surprising number of ciders and
perries for us. All were good, sound, well-made, clean, and certainly had
no technical flaws. With the number of ciders that Kevin had, *all* of
them well-made, it's clear that he's got consistency.
Yet I'm going to have to come down on Andrew's side on the point of single
varietals: with certain exceptions, they're just not balanced. They are
good, drinkable ciders, and I would seek them out, but there's something
missing. We tasted Dabinett and Yarlington Mill (both bittersweets). At
least Andrew, Diane, Charlie, and I found them coming up short because they
lacked enough acid to balance the taste. And as we discussed them, we
realized that if you were having them with food, the lack of acid would be
even more noticeable since you often count on sharpness in the drink as a
foil to the richness of food. BTW, I'm only not speaking for Roy because
I don't recall his comments. But I'm pretty sure he agreed with us on the
Dabinett and YM because he tends to like more acidic ciders than the rest
of us. (At least that's what I think was intended when I was told that
"Roy likes his tart.") That is also evident in the style of ciders Roy
makes.
On the other side, Kevin's Foxwhelp was startlingly sharp. The amount of
acid would make you think it might have gone acetic...save that the taste
was so clean it was obvious that the sharpness was just the acid of the
apple. (I think it was Andrew who said he'd had some Foxwhelp juice that
had come in at a whopping 2% acidity.) Even Roy, who as I say tends to
like sharper ciders, found the Foxwhelp to be a bit over the top. It
begged to be one component of a top-notch blend.
While we were batting ideas around, I took some of the Foxwhelp in my glass
and added some Dabinett. The blend was a bit confused at first (sorry, but
I don't know how else to describe the clash of tastes) but it was clearly
better than either of the singles, and it settled down after a couple
minutes. Then I added a bit of the Yarlington Mill. The result was quite
nice--I can't say it was a classic blend but you can only do so much on
the spot, and it did come close to balance. I think Andrew did a similar
mixture.
Kevin also poured two single-varietals that were clearly balanced and (at
least in the opinions of the 2.5 Americans present) very nice ciders that
wanted nothing: a Kingston Black and a Stoke Red. I've come to like
Kingston Black a lot, even managed to get some apples once and make a bit
of my own. Kevin's KB was great, well worth seeking out. But I found the
Stoke Red even better. Now, these are two varieties that are traditionally
regarded as full bittersharps suitable for ciders by themselves...and
Kevin's ciders confirmed that judgment. Set side-by-side with the bitter-
sweets, these ciders gave an easy reference to the taste component that was
lacking in the Dabinett and YM.
As I see it, "single varietal" is not a goal in itself; it's simply appro-
priate to certain varieties--and _not_ to others.
Back to Dave Matthews:
> All you Americans, go for it with single varietal bittersweets!...
Why?
Given what *we* have to work with--which is usually a lack of bitterness
and sometimes a lack of acid--why shouldn't we either blend or look for
full bittersharps? There's a reason for the acid in a good cider.
Do keep in mind that we have to react to the way the apples mature in our
environment--for example, where I live a Yarlington Mill might never reach
its best ripeness and as a result might happily be more acidic than it
would be in Gloucestershire. So a single-varietal YM might be in balance
if I made it here. But I would make it that way if it _tasted_ right, not
for the sake of it being a single.
What's the reason not to blend? I fear there's a bit of marketing getting
muddled into the mix. Dana Myers had some good observations on this in the
previous digest--the California high-quality wine industry went through a
long period of varietals and is only slowly establishing blends. The
problem and the reason there is both marketing (the varietal name gives an
identity that's associated with a particular character and an implication
of greater quality) and US labeling laws.
We discussed the matter of varietals _vs_ blending with Kevin Minchew, and
he did point to wine as an example, that where in the past the consumer
might go to the wine shop and ask for "a bottle of red and a bottle of
white" he would now ask for perhaps "a bottle of Zinfandel and a bottle of,
oh, Chardonnay", reflecting some evolution of more discerning taste. And
again, if the small cider producers are going to distinguish their products
from the mass-market "alco-pop" pseudo-ciders, they need some way to clue
the customer that their products are in a higher tier.
But does this come down to using a varietal label on the bottle as a
marketing tool? If so, we've got things backwards--we're letting the
package dictate the contents. Plus, that misses the question of how to
impart some distinction to a good blended cider.
> ...Unbalanced? No more so than a red wine made from only Merlot
> grapes...
Wine gains a sense of identity and distinction in various ways--through a
grape variety if that's appropriate, through an appellation, through the
name of the winery. You can make a wine from any single grape variety, but
not all varieties are suited to this treatment. Yes, you'll find Cabernet
Sauvignon or Merlot on their own quite happily. You may find Cabernet
Franc by itself, but if so it's likely to be a quirky wine. And can you
imagine finding a single-varietal Malbec or Petit Verdot?
I wish Dave could have tasted Kevin's Foxwhelp. We quizzed Kevin on how he
would sell the particular Foxwhelp we tasted; his answer was along the
lines that "I've got a hundred bottles of this. I only need to find a
hundred people who really like it." That's OK for an unusual "hey, why
not?" cider, and certainly it's going to make a few folks very happy. It's
also valuable for learning the characteristics of particular apples and
how they'd contribute to a blend. But the novelty would wear off; it's
not going to be a cider-maker's bread-and-butter. Blending is nothing to
be ashamed of.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Books
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:56:48 -0700
The Hereford Cider Museum, Pomona Place, Pomona Place, Herefordshire HR4
0LW, UK. is a source for "Cider and Juice Apples: Growing and Processing" by
RR Williams. Look at Gillians Grafton "Real Cider Page" for the correct
address. I purchased one several years ago, hopefully you can order one now
on Visa. It is a excellent book on cider apple horticulture, also probably
the most current English language book (circa 1989?). However I have
recently read that cider apple plantings in the UK are on the increase and
that a number of newer verities are being developed for growers. Perhaps the
Janitor can comment on this after his trip to UK.
------------------------------
Subject: Research Results?
From: "Roger Flanders" <flanders@probe.net>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 06:44:23 -0500
(In CD#862, Digest Janitor Dick Dunn explains the temporary hiatus of
digests "due to both the janitor and his usual backup being off in
England, diligently researching cider.")
Where did you travel, Dick? What ciders did you have an opportunity
to sample? What did you learn? What can you recommend? Inquiring
minds want to know...
- --Rog Flanders
[Janitor's note: There's one little bit in this digest; I'll write more as
soon as I can get caught up from the trip.]
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Honey and pruning pears
From: Ian Merwin <im13@cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:15:24 -0400
Folks-
In response to two recent entries:
1. On the use of honey in fermented ciders...I produce my own honey and
apples, and have experimented with various honeys (early and late season,
tree vs. legume or goldenrod based honeys) and apple blends for the past 15
years. While I have occasionally ended up with wonderful honey/apple
ciders with just the right undertones of floral aromas, more often the
resultant ciders have tasted too much like mint or whatever other floral
aromas were dominant in the honey. The strong nectar flavors often
overwhelm the more subtle and volatile apple flavors after fermenting these
ciders. In my opinion, adding honey is risky and unnecessary--unless your
goal is to produce meads using cider as a volume base. Lately I have been
avoiding any sugar or honey amendments, and striving for the right mix of
yeast, apple varieties and low-nitrogen, cool (50 F) slow fermentation
conditions to allow the intrinsic apple aromas to survive the fermentation
and finishing processes.
2. On the time for pruning pears (or apples)... The time and type of
pruning affect tree responses greatly, with generally less regrowth in
response to the cut as it is delayed from dormant to summer seasons. If
there are active fireblight cankers in an orchard, they should be removed
as soon as practically possible, at any time of year, cutting at least 6
inches below the visible canker margins, and dipping the pruning tools into
lysol or denatured alcohol between each pruning cut to kill the fireblight
bacterium. If these fireblight strikes are left to fester in trees until
the next dormant season, they will spread within the infected trees during
the interim, and provide inoculum for dispersal by insect vectors and
rainsplash, causing secondary shoot infections in other trees throughout
the summer. When trees are on susceptible rootstocks (Quince, M.9, M.26,
MM.106) the bacterium can also diffuse down through the phloem and kill the
root system of a tree with just a few active infections in its upper
branches. Eventually the entire orchard and those of your neighbors, are
at risk! The midwestern and northeastern US had unusually hot weather and
thundershowers during bloom this spring--ideal conditions for fireblight
blossom infections-- so there may be quite a few large or small-scale
orchards with serious fireblight infections showing up during the next few
weeks. Prebloom fixed coppper sprays, and streptomycin sprays during bloom
can help prevent primary infections, but once these infections are
established in trees, the only practical measure to control the subsequent
spread of this disease is an agressive pruning program to remove the
infected branches as soon as possible, taking the tool disinfestation
precautions noted above. For those who want more information on this
disease, there is an excellent website with good illustrations and
information on the disease etiology at the following url:
<www.caf.wvu.edu/kearneysville/disease_descriptions/omblight.html>
*************************
Ian Merwin (im13@cornell.edu)
Associate Professor of Pomology
118 Plant Science Bldg.
Dept. of Fruit and Vegetable Science
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, 14853
Tel. 607-255-1777
URL. http://www.fvs.cornell.edu/Faculty/php/IanMerwin/iam.html
------------------------------
Subject: Country Inn. . .
From: NLSteve@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:56:52 EDT
Shawn Houser says in his post, "I am a Chef at a local country Inn, and have
recently been exparimenting with the flavors extracted from my herbal,
fruity, and spiced ciders and meads."
I believe I saw his post in the mead digest & wondered then if my impression
that he is making these beverages and selling them is correct. If so, is the
ABC squared away?
Steve
------------------------------
Subject: Blending Bittersweet Ciders
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:36:22 +0100
Rod McDonald wrote:
> Andrew Lea said (a few digests ago) that no-one in their right mind would
> ferment single variety bittersweet ciders. I wonder then how is it that BTP
> Barker (from Long Ashton) in his 'Cider Apple Production' (1937) describes the
> vintage qualities of 'Yarlington Mill Jersey' as "Cider of good body,
> aroma and flavour usually. A superior all-round variety" (p. 73)?
>
My rather flippant remarks were not of course meant to be taken at full
face value! In fact some very <interesting> ciders can be made from
single bittersweet varieties and Dick Dunn, Roy Bailey and myself had
the chance to taste some at Kevin Minchew's in Gloucestershire the other
day. Kevin makes them with great care so they are certainly free from
any bacterial taints and blemishes. Nor does he blend them off with
additional acid and sweetening like some of the larger commercial makers
- - so their full character shines through (and each one is distinctively
different).
However, <interesting> is not the same
thing as commercially balanced, and I think it is a fact that for
general drinking by most people they would be regarded as too tannic and
insufficiently acid. We did actually blend up a (very acid but
flavourful) Foxwhelp and a Yarlington Mill 'on the hoof' while we were
tasting and, in my opinion, the whole was greater than the sum of its
parts!
So far as Professor Barker's remarks are concerned, he spent at least 50
years at Long Ashton fermenting and analysing thousands of single
variety ciders for their 'vintage quality'(that programme had mostly
finished by the time I arrived in 1972). The point of the work was to
define and to understand the contribution which each individual variety
would make to a blend. This work extended widely into other aspects such
as speed of fermentation and orchard behaviour as well as the final flavour
characteristics after natural conditioning in bottle. But when making
commercial cider for sale (rather
than for science), we always blended the juices or ciders to get to an
appropriate balance for market. Single variety ciders never left the
confines of the laboratory or the annual Tasting Day for demonstration
purposes.
'Vintage quality' for cider was always understood to be in the context of
the potential contribution of that cider to a balanced blend. To that extent
it differs markedly from wine-making, where balanced single-variety
wines are a much more realistic goal. I guess every cidermaker should
make single ciders of each of his varieties at least once. This helps
in understanding the contribution they make to the blend and is a
valuable exercise. But for a commercial product that people will
consistently enjoy and come back for more - I think blending has to be
the key!
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Glass vs PET for Natural Conditioning??
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:27:06 +0100
This last season (99/00) I've had to bottle my naturally conditioned
cider in (new) PET bottles as well as in glass. I've used both
previously without problems but never made a direct paired comparison
before. After six weeks or so in bottle there are now marked
differences between them. The PET, although it has plenty of gas
pressure, seems to be maturing and rounding out in flavour terms far
slower than the glass.
I have my own theories as to why this might be, but my question to the
Digest is - has anyone else observed this? Does the difference continue
long-term or does the PET eventually catch up?
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #863
*************************
