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Cider Digest #0830
Subject: Cider Digest #830, 7 October 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #830 7 October 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #829, 29 September 1999 (Lealon Watts)
Sulfiting (Dave Burley)
Re: Cider Digest #829,orchards near Boston (Corinne Gaudin)
Re: cider orchards near Boston (or New England / New York)? ("Justin A. H...)
Re: sulfiting and Re: pasteurization (Greg Troxel)
Pasteurisation of apple juice (Roy Bailey)
Cider Day (Terry Maloney)
"Perry Pears" (David Johnson)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #829, 29 September 1999
From: Lealon Watts <lwatts@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 18:28:33 -0700
The catch is that I do not wish to do a total ferment to the "hard"
cider stage, I wish to only let the stuff turn to a stage that I like
and would feel good about serving my kids, just because of the flavor.
*I* may want to drink a product with more alcohol, but I don't think I
should be feeding this to my grade school kids, right?
Thanks,
Lauria Watts
> Subject: Pasteurization
> From: Steve Butts <stephen.j.butts@lawrence.edu>
> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:42:33 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
> But I cannot see why an individual producing for his or her own
> consumption would even consider it except in very special circumstances.
> I've kept my own cider for as long as three or four years in a basement
> that can get up to 80 degrees in the summer with absolutely no problem.
------------------------------
Subject: Sulfiting
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:55:00 -0400
Message text written by INTERNET:cider@talisman.com
><
Cider Lovers,
Dick Dunn asks "why the attitude?" when I suggested
that a newbie ignore the oft proffered "natural" production
method to produce cider without the oxidation and
bacterial protection of sulfite. Unfortunately, I have
seen newbies ( who want to do everything "right")
make one batch following such advice, end up with
an oxidised, acidic mess and quit. I do not want to
see that happen and I encourage all newbies to use
small amounts ( like 30-50 ppm) to prevent oxidation
and acetification in their early batches. I still do,
IMHO, I have no more "attitude" than others who promote
such a "natural" approach with almost religious zeal.
Unfortunately, the basic theory of "natural" promoters
that the "old fashioned" cider was somehow better
has yet to be proven and, frankly, I doubt it.
It is true that sulfite is not necessary and some British
cider producers ( in huge vats) do in fact allow the
juice to sit on the skins and become oxidised, paying
the price of a dark cider on the theory that oxidation prior to
fermentation is better than after fermentation and
that the added complexity is worth the risk. This is not an
experiment for the newbie to try nor to risk an entire batch.
It is fine to use a "natural" yeast and bacteria source for
cider fermentation. In the old days before sanitation
became a recognized process in fermentation, the
cider was often naturally pitched by residue yeasts
and bacteria in the wood of the vats as well as on the
skins of the apples. Today such a practice is still
possible, but more likely the larger producers pitch
their fermentation agents to get a consistent product.
Which is the point. No one denies that a good cider
can be made without sulfite or even sanitation, luck
also happens. But attention to both of these issues
is important to get a consistently good product.
Dave Burley
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #829,orchards near Boston
From: Corinne Gaudin <gaudin@uottawa.ca>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 10:20:47 -0400
You might check out Gould Hill Orchards, in Contoocook NH (one hour from
Boston). I don't know if they do cider, but their list of apple varieties
is unusually long, and they have a few good and hard to get cider
varieties. You can check them out on the web.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: cider orchards near Boston (or New England / New York)?
From: "Justin A. Haber" <jah@cvlab.harvard.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:53:53 -0400
Ethan wrote:
> anyone have any suggestions on where I can find unpastuerized cider of good
> quality and mix for fermenting?
Ethan and other interested folk: The Boston Wort Processors are having
their annual Ciderfest on
October 16th, 1:00 PM
at the
Kimball's Fruit Farm
84 Hollis St.
Pepperell Ma. 01463
$5.00 for Wort and BFD members, $10.00 for others, young kids are free.
A custom cider blend will be available for purchase at $3.50/gallon
(please order ahead).
see http://www.wort.org/ciderfest.html for details
- --Justin
------------------------------
Subject: Re: sulfiting and Re: pasteurization
From: Greg Troxel <gdt@work.lexort.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 07:49:31 -0400 (EDT)
I would agree that sulfiting is somewhat "safer", in that you then
have a very high chance of making something that is ok. But my
homemade ciders seem to have a more interesting taste than commercial
(surely sulfited) cider. I started making cider after I had made 3
batches of homebrewed beer. I let the cider start fermenting (from
orchard yeast) in the 1 gallon jugs, and then tasted each one (I
bought extra) before committing it to my 5 gallon fermenters. All
tasted clean, with some alcohol. I then generally let them ferment in
primary for a few months. In 1998 I bottled 4 batches that had been
in secondary since the 93 and 94 apple crop respectively! 3 were in
excellent shape, and 1 is slightly acetic - just too much to make it
not very pleasant. I'm quite sure that the acetic one is due to
oxygen getting into secondary (these were somewhat neglected due to
work issues), and not due to lack of sulfiting.
All my raw cider was a Paul Correnty/Boston Wort Processors blend from
Anderson Fruit Farms of Westford, Mass, and it was all unpasteurized.
I added various adjuncts (brown sugar, white sugar, maple syrup, and
honey), and all the adjuncts were heat sterilzed before going in with
the raw cider. Most were bottled without extra sugar, and are still.
This cider, and some from as far back as the 91 apple crop have been
sitting in my basement for years (as cold as 45 in winter and as much
as 70 in summer), and seems to be holding up well.
I'm sure if the orchard weren't clean, or if the orchard yeast weren't
vigorous and pleasant, there would probably be problems. But I
prefer to take the chance and get some more character.
Greg
------------------------------
Subject: Pasteurisation of apple juice
From: Roy Bailey <lvcider@westberks.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 07:22:20 +0100
How passionately I agree with Steve Butts' comments on pasteurisation
(Cider Digest No.829). On her excellent website <http://www.breworld.com
/homebrew/cider/cider.html>, Dr Gillian Grafton writes, 'Apple juice
cannot be sterilised by heating since the pectin esterase enzymes in the
juice are destroyed by heat, thus the resulting cider will not clear'.
There may be some point in pasteurising apple juice intended for
drinking to prevent e-coli, but even this rather smacks of the sort of
health scare that has become all too prevalent in the developed
countries these days, because modern man has little natural resistance.
Pasteurisation will destroy beneficial bacteria and vitamins as well as
e-coli. In any case, fermentation will also destroy a wide range of
bacteria, so why bother?
I quote Ian Wyder in Digest no. 826, 'I have in fact fermented thousands
of gallons of flash pasteurized apple juice. I cannot say it was the
best but it certainly was drinkable - fruit characteristics were lacking
somewhat.'
What an indictment of the process! Surely the whole point of making our
own cider is to produce something very special, otherwise we might as
well buy the bland stuff from the big producers and save ourselves the
trouble.
I have to say that I note with a certain amount of amusement some of the
comments that appear on this Digest, not just about pasteurisation but
about adding wheat malt, fermenting with Whitbread yeast, etc. I'm
surprised someone hasn't suggested that you should only collect the
fruit when the moon is waxing (or is it waning?)
Let me make a radical suggestion. Do as the makers of real cider do in
this country. Take a batch of ripe apples of several different
varieties, mince them up, squeeze out the juice, let it ferment on its
own yeast, rack occasionally, and drink after about 6 or 8 months.
That's cider!
- --
Roy Bailey - Proprietor, The Lambourn Valley Cider Company
(Real cider from the Royal County)
The Malt House, Great Shefford, HUNGERFORD, Berks RG17 7ED, UK
Tel: 01488 648441 Fax: 0870 052 2514
URL: http://www.westberks.demon.co.uk/lvcider/
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Day
From: Terry Maloney <westcounty@attglobal.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 10:30:50 -0400
The 5th Annual Cider Day is Saturday, November 6, 1999 in Western
Massachusetts. A celebration of cider, sweet and hard, it includes
cider pressings, demonstration, discussions, and tastings. For more
information, go to
www.ciderday.org
Terry Maloney
West County Hard Cider
PO Box 29
Colrain, MA 01340
413 624 3481
westcounty@ibm.net
www.westcountycider.com
------------------------------
Subject: "Perry Pears"
From: David Johnson <dmjalj@inwave.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 21:57:07 -0500
I have been trying to find a copy of the book "Perry Pears". It has been
re-issued in a paperback form with a spiral binding. The cost is 25
British pounds. It is from IACR-Long Ashton Research Station. The
contact person is HM Anderson and may be contacted by email
christine.cooke@bbsrc.ac.uk
My problem will be getting payment to him in the proper currency.
David Johnson
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #830
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