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Cider Digest #0854
Subject: Cider Digest #854, 21 March 2000
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #854 21 March 2000
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Sulfite and sorbate (Brian Lundeen)
RE: Sorbate AND sulphite ("Sherfey")
Re: Cider Digest #853, 15 March 2000 (Claude Jolicoeur)
Perry (Carolyn Wood)
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Subject: Sulfite and sorbate
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen@post.rrc.mb.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:47:28 -0600
> I think I don't like this at all. Their Pear Cider contains
> added malic
> acid (that's usually used to add an impression of apple
> taste), sulfite
> and sorbate (why both?!?),
Whatever else they are doing to their pear cider, this at least is good
practice. Since they are adding malic acid, there is a risk of malolactic
fermentation if sulphite levels are too low. I'm assuming the sorbate is
added because the cider is finished with residual sugar. If malolactic
occurs in the presence of potassium sorbate, a horrible geranium smell is
produced which would ruin the cider.
Brian
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Subject: RE: Sorbate AND sulphite
From: "Sherfey" <sherf@warwick.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:34:09 -0500
Dick questions why both?
According to Emile Peynaud in an article in "The Complete Handbook of
Winemaking" sorbate needs both sulphite and alcohol to be effective in
protecting *wines*. The sorbate opposes multiplication of yeast, and the
sulphite protects from oxidation and bacterial development. The lower the
pH the better as well. He has a chart that indicates that at 8% alcohol,
the amount of sorbate that would be needed would be 200 mg/L, at pH 3.5
(200mg/L is the French legal limit). Sorbic acid itself is subject to
bacterial degradation, and a resulting geranium odor, hence a specific need
for suplhite.
Assuming this is correct, I would question the attempted use of sorbate in a
cider strength beverage, as it seems like pushing luck. The dosage would be
right at the end of the usage curve.... I am just quoting information, here,
and I would like to hear from those who are successfully using sorbate with
their ciders, and what their dose is, etc.
David Sherfey
Warwick, NY
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #853, 15 March 2000
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 22:04:03 -0500
"Luedtke, James [Minn]" <James.Luedtke@cgiusa.com> wrote:
>Subject: Apples for Zone 4
>In the March 7 digest, Claude Jolicoeur lists his orchard as Zone 4, and
>includes Yarlington Mill and Bulmer's Norman as producing varieties. Thank
>you Claude, for this good news that at least those varieties can stand the
>cold. I do wonder though, does the St Lawrence modifies the extreme
>temperatures in your area?
My orchard is in Canadian zone 4, which is fairly equivalent to USDA zone
4. Minimum winter temperature is normally around -32 C, and down to about
- -38 in test years. However, for the last 5 years, I haven't recorded
anything lower than -30 C (-25 this winter). I test my cider varieties as
topgrafts in a Cortland tree, which is very hardy here. This increases the
hardiness of the grafted variety. If I think the variety is sufficiently
hardy, I will then try it on its own rootstock. I know that Stoke Red and
Brown's Apple have been tested by Agriculture Canada and found hardy in an
experimental orchard in a location just slightly warmer than mine.
At the moment, I believe that the following are hardy at my location:
Brown's Apple, Stoke Red, Yarlington Mill, Porter's Perfection, Bulmer's
Norman, Breakwell's Seedling, Muscadet de Dieppe, and probably Chisel
Jersey and Tremlett's Bitter.
The following do not go well (or are dead) and are probably not enough
hardy for zone 4: Medaille D'Or, Chataigner, Brown Snout.
- ---------
and Ian Merwin <im13@cornell.edu> wrote:
>Subject: Re: Cider Digest #852, 7 March 2000
>After reading that chapter of Downing's, I want to point out another
>interesting table on the previous page with information on the harvest
>dates of European cider apples at Geneva, NY...
I have noticed similar behaviour. I have always chosen early varieties
since it is not possible to harvest an apple in November in my orchard
unless one yould want to harvest a frozen apple. I have however found that
these apples ripen much earlier here that in England. Here is some data:
Brown's Apple - 2nd week of September.
Yarlington Mill - 1st crop in 1999, harvested Sept 11.
Bulmer's Norman was overripe on Sept 6 in 1999 (1st crop).
Breakwell's Seedling - end of August.
Chisel Jersey and Porter's Perfection ripen later, by 2nd week of October.
I assume this earlier ripening date is caused by the fact that we have
sunny and warm summers compared to England which is cooler and rainier.
Claude Jolicoeur, Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: Perry
From: Carolyn Wood <natvwine@cut.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:39:23 -0600
Dick Dunn wrote:
> While I didn't find artificial flavoring in the Ace apple (as
>Carolyn Wood did in 851), the ingredient list on the "Pear Cider"
>(what's wrong with just fermenting pears???) and artificial
>flavoring (sorry, *NO* excuse to be made for that).
I too went and double checked after I shot off my mouth. The apple
cider has no arificial flavoring, but the "Pear Cider" does.
I also noticed that the main ingredient for the "Pear Cider" is
listed as "cider stock". Now, I know quite a bit about labeling wine
products as this is my profession (strictly regulated by the ATF), but
I'm not sure about low alcohol beverages (regulated by the USDA I
believe). I suspect that if the ACE people were using pear juice as
the main ingredient in this beverage then they would say so, and the
reason they call it "cider stock" is because it is most likely apple
juice.
If this is true, then the reason why is probably because pears are
much more expensive than apples especially in California, and the
"Pear Cider" would be have to be much more expensive if made with
pears. If you think realistically about the price of this beverage
which must include Federal as well as State taxes and the cost of
production, bottling, labeling, shipping and marketing it's pretty
obvious that you get what you pay for.
On another subject, I have obtained scionwood for the following
perry pears: Hendre Huffcap, Norman Cibrebirne, Butt, Blakeney Red,
Thorn, Gin, Red Pear, Winnals Longdon, Barnet, Barland, Romania,
Brandy, Yellow Huffcap, Tayton Squash and Gelbmostler.
If anyone can kindly lead me in the direction to find out more about
these varieties, I would be most grateful.
Much thanks to all for sharing your expertise......Carolyn
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End of Cider Digest #854
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