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Cider Digest #0859
Subject: Cider Digest #859, 25 April 2000
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #859 25 April 2000
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
off-season cider making (peter gaffney)
Crabs and bears (Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au)
New Wyeast strain for cider (Stuart Ing)
Re: Cider Digest #858, 18 April 2000 (Claude Jolicoeur)
Strongbow (Ian.Price@bhint.com)
Re: 4-18 digest ("Luedtke, James [Minn]")
Re: Cider Digest #858 (Tim Bray)
Re: Cider Digest #858, 18 April 2000 (William J. Rhyne)
cider apple juices (derek bisset)
Maturing of AppleBrandy/Calvados (Knut Riggert)
Responses to several questions (Terence L Bradshaw)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: off-season cider making
From: peter gaffney <peter.g@telus.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:50:07 -0700
Folks,
i've decided to try making apple cider.
and although i have some experience with brewing beers, it seems
like a good idea to take a sort of "practice run" before jumping into
using the really fresh juice, later in the year.
the question: can one make an acceptable cider, at this time of year,
using last season's stored fruit?
home is in Vancouver, so there are plenty of apples available;
although suggestions for sourcing good varieties would be welcome!
any advice / recommendations greatly appreciated !
regards
peter g
------------------------------
Subject: Crabs and bears
From: Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:33:19 +1000
"Brian Lundeen" <blundeen@rrc.mb.ca>
asked: Any thoughts on what sort of blend would make
for a decent cider?
In the past I have used crabs to augment the mixed dessert apples (incl.
Macintosh, Snows, pink Ladies and Golden Delicious) last year the quantity
worked out to be about 2 gallons of crabs (fruit, not juice) into the press per
25 litres of juice coming out the other end. I don't know the actual quantities
of apples that made up the juice. Based on last year's experience I'd reduce
that quantity, so I'd mix put about only a gallon of crabapples with the rest of
the apples to be juiced per 25 litres. The cider was pretty good but had a
distinct taste of crab apple in it, which wasn't unpleasant but also wasn't what
I was looking for. I have found that a straight blend of dessert apples can work
fine, but risks being a little thin, flavourwise that is.
and "Sean Cox" <sean_cox@gdt1.com>
asked: has anyone found bears to be a problem for their trees?
Bears!!! Quelle Horreur! I thought cockatoos were bad enough, but at least they
don't threaten to tear your innards out if you challenge them to a territorial
duel!
------------------------------
Subject: New Wyeast strain for cider
From: Stuart Ing <stuarti@lava.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:17:32 -1000
> There has been some interesting discussion in rec.crafts.winemaking lately
> about cider. Specifically, people have mentioned Wyeast makes a cider
> strain #3766. Since there hasn't been much activity in the digest
> recently, I thought now would be a good time to survey the results people
> have had with this strain? Can it be used for sweet cider of low alcohol
> levels. The web page says it ferments dry. http://www.wyeastlab.com/
it definitely ferments dry. I have some going right now, about 6 gal of
frozen apple juice. I keep feeding it more and more frozen apple juice
concentrate and the yeast happily eats it all up. I did a 600 ml
starter, fermentation started in about 24hrs.
- --
Stu
stuarti@lava.net
penfold314@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #858, 18 April 2000
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 02:06:52 -0400
In digest #858, "Sean Cox" <sean_cox@gdt1.com> wrote:
>Subject: Planting trees
>On a related note, has anyone found bears to be a problem for their trees?
> The area I'm in has lots of black bears, and I know they love the beech
>nuts, but do they bother apples? Any hints to dealing with them if they
>do?
For sure bears can be a big problem. They simply love apples. If they just
ate them, it wouldn't be so bad. The main problem is that they are not
exactly delicate when they pick the apples - they break the branch... One
year, it was really bad, and I had to bring all the apples down so the
bears wouldn't climb and break the trees - I lost a good part of the
production but the trees didn't suffer too much. Now it's not as bad as I
have neighbours that have dogs and the bears don't appreciate too much.
On the subject of varieties for zone 4, you may read my message in digest
#854 for cider apples that appear hardy in zone 4. I also like very much
Cortland - it's good to eat, good for juice and makes good cider, doesn't
have much problems except some scab but this is not a concern for cider,
and it is a good reliable producer - bears just love them... I would surely
plant 1 of the 3 trees as Cortland.
- ---------
Also, Tom in Western Mass. (Skylnscrn@aol.com) wrote:
>Anyone have any favorite yeast suggestions ?
I always use Champagne yeast. Most of the time, the Lalvain EC-1118.
Sometimes also, I use the Redstar Champagne. At bottling, to get a
sparkling cider, I like to use the Redstar Prise de mousse when I can get
it (supply is scarce for Redstar yeast).
Claude Jolicoeur, Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: Strongbow
From: Ian.Price@bhint.com
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:28:22 +0100
Strongbow is a very common brand in the UK. Here it is a mass produced,
sweetish, rather fizzy drink which is not held in high regard by real cider
producers. Not necessarily the same thing that you found in the Czech Republic
of course! Plenty of people seem to drink it though.
Decent ciders are not commonly found in pubs in the UK in my experience,
although you occasionally see some of the Bulmers or Westons range. In
Nottingham, where I live, we had until recently a bar called "Applejacks" which
actually specialised in ciders and perrys. Unfortunately it closed down late
last year. Sold some rather more interesting ciders too.
Ian.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: 4-18 digest
From: "Luedtke, James [Minn]" <James.Luedtke@cgiusa.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:17:57 -0400
Sean Cox was wondering about cider varieties for zone 4. Sean, check out the
digest from 3-21-00, where Claude Jolicoeur discusses what varieties he
believes to be hardy in Quebec at about zone 4.
Brian Lundeen wondered what varieties to use when no cider varieties are
available. I'd say get the most balance blend you can between acid and
sweetness and add some crabs for a bit of tanning. You might also try some
augmenting your juice with grape tannin, or a small amount of some
astringent fruit. That's been my method the past 5 years. A couple of years
ago I added wild black cherry juice (not much, about a 2% addition). The
cherry was extremely astringent, presumably because of tannins. Anyway, I
think that batch turned out to be the best yet. I imagine that chokecherries
which I'm sure you must have around(?), would do the same thing.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #858
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:45:05 -0700
Strongbow Cider - English style, named after the Anglo-Norman knight who
was invited to Ireland by one side of a local political dispute in the 12th
century; this was the incident that let the English into Ireland. I have
had it in English pubs, but have never seen it in America. It is a
Bulmer's`product; didn't they name one of their big tanks "Strongbow?" You
might find more info at the Cider Surfer Arms:
http://www.cidersurfersarms.com/default.htm
>------------------------------
>
>Subject: Planting trees - in NH
You should check with the folks at Cummins Nursery in Geneva, NY. They are
very knowledgeable and have a number of cider varieties available.
http://www.dabney.com/cumminsnursery
or e-mail Jim Cummins at:
JMC1@EPIX.NET
Good Luck!
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #858, 18 April 2000
From: rhyne@wli.net (William J. Rhyne)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:39:16 -0700
RE: Yarlington Mill fresh juice flavor, cider apples in CA, store bought juice
We (Rhyne Cyder) fermented a test batch of fresh pressed Yarlington Mill
and it looked like Guiness and tasted like Lipton tea and apple juice
together. The final product was very nice though with nice depth of flavor.
We got this apple and some Nehou (small quantities only available right
now) from Terry Harrison's Sonoma Antique Apple Nursery in Healdsburg, CA.
The Nehou fermented to a cherry red color. Very interesting in appearance
and taste. Tim Bray may want to talk to Terry about his experience with
California as he sells these old varieties and he grows them in his orchard.
As for other juices to ferment that are available in the stores, we tried
Odwalla's apple juice once but the acid was too low and the final fermented
flavor was not pleasant. We had better success with Martinelli's Apple
juice, which includes a large percentage of Newtown Pippins from Santa Cruz
county as part of the blend.
Have a good day!!
Bill Rhyne
http://www.rhynecyder.com
------------------------------
Subject: cider apple juices
From: derek bisset <derek_bisset@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:24:21 -0700
Rod McDonald asked about the difference between cider made from dessert
apples and cider apples.
I have had the experience of making cider for several years from dessert
apples and over the last four years being able to add more and more
juice from newly planted cider varieties, including Yarlington
Mill,Dabinett,Michelin and Chisel Jersey. The difference I have noticed
is a gradual improvement in the drinking and keeping qualities of the
cider. When I made cider from dessert apples only, I always seemed to
develop some off flavour or odour that I found unpleasant. As I was able
to add more cider apple juice, the problems simply disappeared and a
clean earthy character developed in the cider.I have recently had ciders
made from straight Cox's Orange in one case and a very sour green cooker
by another amateur. Both had the off tastes I now associate with
non-cider juices.
The only cider I made previously which I thought relatively good
contained a lot of crabapples. The main difference between that cider
and cider now made with cider apples is the richer colour and the full
body given by the tannin in the cider apples.
I would consider blending the Yarlington Mill juice with the dessert
apple juice. Generally a blend gives a better result than a single
variety cider.
On another subject, from the Bellingham area, it is an easy and pleasant
trip over to Vancouver Island where Merridale Cider near Victoria is
using a proportion of cider apples in theri commercial cider production.
------------------------------
Subject: Maturing of AppleBrandy/Calvados
From: Knut.Riggert@t-online.de (Knut Riggert)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:01:41 +0200
Hi there,
last weekend a friend of mine and me finally had the pleasure to try the
result of a lot of work. We recieved the the higher energetic form of
what used to be our cider from a small destillery. And I have to say they
did a great job.
So what interests me know is if anybody has any hints for maturing it?
Knut
------------------------------
Subject: Responses to several questions
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@quest-net.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 08:33:24 -0400
>From: "Sean Cox" <sean_cox@gdt1.com>
>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:03:10 -0400
>I'm in central New Hampshire (UDSA zone 4 or so).
>Most of the apples will be fermented (with token fruit used for apple pies
>:-)
>I'm planning on putting in 3-4 trees.
>The soil is sandy/rocky but lots of compost will be available to them.
>They'll be on a SW facing slope with plenty of drainage, downhill from a
>mixed stand of trees (pine, oak, beech) in a thickly forested area
>(they'll have full sun in a small clearing).
>I expect somewhat acidic soil (based upon the pine needles littering the
>area).
>I want to be able to acquire them for planting this Spring.
>The Mrs. and I tend to prefer more strongly flavored ciders (more English
>than US style), and flavor is more important to me than yield.
Sean:
In terms of cold-hardy cider varieties I would recommend Yarlington Mill
and Ashmeads's Kernel specifically. This is based on reports from Steve
Woods at Poverty Lane Orchards in Lebanon, NH who grows a lot of vintage
cider apples. By the sounds of it you will need to do a soil test first
and lime accordingly. Due to several reason's, including short supply at
the nurseries, I don't think you should plant this spring. You will need
one season anyway for the lime to start working, and I recommend digging
planting holes one year in advance and mixing in plenty of compost. This
will also give you time to mull over you variety choices and place an order
in the fall.
>On a related note, has anyone found bears to be a problem for their trees?
> The area I'm in has lots of black bears, and I know they love the beech
>nuts, but do they bother apples? Any hints to dealing with them if they
>do?
Yes, bears like apples, but not nearly as much as deer. Follow all the
usual precautions used for deer (hair bags, soap, egg spray, fencing), but
keep your rifle handy during bear season...
>From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:15:48 -0700
>In a few years, I can let you know how I fare with the following
>newly-planted varieties:
>Ashmead's Kernel, Bedan, Binet Rouge, Black Twig, Brown's Apple, Cox's
>Orange Pippin, Golden Russet, Granny Smith, Gravenstein, Karmijn de
>Sonnaville, King David, Kingston Black, Major, Margil, Muscadet de Dieppe,
>Muscat de Bernay, Noel de Champs, Porter's Perfection, Red Vein Crab, Rhode
>Island Greening, Roxbury Russet, Stoke Red, Sweet Coppin, Wealthy, Whitney
>Crab, Wickson Apple, Yarlington Mill
>
>Actually, I think I can already report that Gravenstein does pretty well
>here... ;->
Tim: Wealthy should do pretty well, too, from a low-chilling-hour
standpoint. I don't know about the quality in your climate, however...
>From: Skylnscrn@aol.com
>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:39:27 EDT
>
><If your cider is less than perfect, then why aren't you asking questions?>
>Ok my cider isn't perfect, up until last year I have only used the "wild"
>yeast that was lucky enought to accompany the apples to the press, with 1 1/2
>cups of raisins added to my 5 gal. batch. The apples used were run of the
>mill sweet cider mix, macs, red & ye delicious, empires, cortland and
>whatever else we felt like blending in. This probably isnt the best blend
>for hard cider, but as we are primarily making cider to sell at our fruit
>stand as "sweet cider" this is what I use. This January I graduated to using
>yeast, (fleischmanns yeast for bread). The addition of "clean" yeast really
>smoothed out the flavor and has encouraged me to add yeast from now on. My
>current batch is fermenting with a packet of Coopers brewing yeast. Anyone
>have any favorite yeast suggestions ?
>Tom in Western Mass.
Tom: I have had my best luck using wild yeasts from a press that has gone
unsterilized for over twenty years!!! Yes, I have used packaged yeasts,
too, but you should stay away from the bread yeast . Generally not
considered too good for cider.....
That's my piece....still have 40 gallons to bottle off when I find the
time (too bad it's fishing season now)...
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service
PO Box 258, Chelsea, VT 05038
(802)685-3412
madshaw@quest-net.com
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #859
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