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Cider Digest #0809
Subject: Cider Digest #809, 12 May 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #809 12 May 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
odour descriptors ("McDonald, Rod")
hydrometer calibration (T.J. Higgins)
Cider changes III (Gabi)
Freezing apples (Claude Jolicoeur)
movie anyone? (kathy/jim)
Cider Flavour Descriptors (Andrew Lea)
Calvados Boulard (Dick Dunn)
Low acidity ("Eddy Hefford")
TA titration (John Wilkinson)
Perry (Planning Ahead) ("Chris Hebert")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: odour descriptors
From: "McDonald, Rod" <Rod.McDonald@isr.gov.au>
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:23:04 +1000
Andrew Lea asked for some reasonably descriptive terms for flavour. I have a
problem/query which will use odour descriptors.
I have done 3 x 25 l batches of cider (using dessert and some Yarlington
Mill) this year, the first with a high alc. champagne type wine yeast, which
took off quite quickly and from an SG of about 1.065 (IIRC) about 4 or 5
weeks ago it is now down to 1.004 and smells and tastes clean, fruity, and
quite alcoholic....
The second 2 batches (using dessert and crabs) OTOH were pressed a couple of
weeks back, only one of which I pitched yeast into, the other I was
intending to ferment on its natural yeasts. As it turned out the pitched
yeast has not activated and they are both fermenting naturally, down from
1.064 to 1.048 in the space of a couple of weeks. That is all fine and
dandy, except for the smell....They are both fermenting in the laundry at
about 14 deg C, and to put it bluntly, my wife told me she though the cats
had been farting in the laundry! The smell is pretty flatulent, probably
could be described as somewhat sulphurous, but the taste, while still fairly
sweet does not appear to be off or tainted. What sort of smells does one
usually get with natural fermentation using unknown and wild yeasts? Is
this smell likely to disappear over time (I am not averse to aging for
months or years if necessary)? I have fermented lager using low temp lager
yeast that has had a similar smell which has not been imparted to the final
product after about 9 months of aging. Or has something gone horribly wrong?
On another note, a short while ago I think there was a query about aging of
cider. I have found that last year's cider bottled during spring (probably
in October 1998) is still getting better, although from previous year's
experience the improvement seems to plateau after 10 to 12 months in the
bottle.
Rod
------------------------------
Subject: hydrometer calibration
From: tjhiggin@chris.iss.ingr.com (T.J. Higgins)
Date: Thu, 6 May 99 13:27:26 CDT
Rod McDonald wrote:
> I haven't had any difficulty fermenting to zero or even less than zero and
> getting an adequate dry flavour (personally, I don't really like sweet all
> that much anyway). I presume you are using a hydrometer? If you are and it
> is fermenting right out and still leaving a residual sweetness I would be
> wondering if there is any sweetening additive (such as some form of
> glycerine compound) in the kit to start with.
Speaking of hydrometers, there is a guy here in town who through
self-education has become an expert in hydrometer calibration. It all
started because he had a hydrometer that was WAY off and it caused him
a lot of brewing problems.
He spoke at our homebrew club meeting last month and showed a nifty
way to calibrate your hydrometer using common household ingredients
such as salt and distilled water. It was quite surprising to see how
far off a hydrometer can be. Most of them are fairly close around
1.000, but can be quite inaccurate at 1.050 and beyond. This leads
one to believe that the manufacturers calibrate them in water only
and ship them out. Anyway, check out all the information on the web
at http://ro.com/~sprevost/beerwine/
- --
T.J. Higgins
tjhiggin@ingr.com
Huntsville, AL
------------------------------
Subject: Cider changes III
From: wombat@xpoint.at (Gabi)
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:41:13 GMT
Dave Burley wrote:
>It wasn't clear from your note if the cider was under pressure of CO2
><before> you tapped the first glass or not.
Yes, it was under pressure. We always top the barrels with a small
amount of still fermenting cider, so that a proper CO2 layer is build
by the fermentation. And we keep the pressure from the first glass on
with CO2 from a cylinder. As far as I think the cider never gets into
contact with oxygen.
>The other thing is that the "roughness" you are referring to may be from a
>separate cause. I wonder if the pressure vessel is actually aluminum or if
>it is stainless steel?
Some are aluminium, some are stainless steel - but the same thing
happens! It gets rouhg and a little bit smoky, like smoked ham, not
like vinegar.
By the way, "Gabi" is a short form for Gabriela, I am not a "he" :) -
but don`t mind....your suggestions are nonetheless very welcome!
Perhaps it all depends on using desert apples for cider making, low in
acidity and whatever. I always add a appropriate amount of citric acid
- - but who knows!
Andrew Lea wrote:
>Gabi's cider storage is a problem to understand. If it starts to taste
>'like scrumpy' that could be an acetobacter infection, which would
>increase the volatile acidity and ethyl acetate levels.
Could a infection start in the tap and "crawl" back into the barrel??
Because thats the only way I can imagine it. We always clean the
barrels with chempro before using it but I guess there are more than
enough spores of bacteria around.
Greetings from Vienna,
Gabriele
------------------------------
Subject: Freezing apples
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 00:08:14 -0400
In cider digests 805, 806 and 807, there has been a discussion on the
possibility of freezing juice from early apples for mixing with late
apples. In particular, Andrew Lea had the following comment :
>This HAS to be a much better bet than freezing
>the apples, which in my experience is a complete disaster for a whole
>host of physical and biochemical reasons which I shan't go into here!
I would appreciate, Andrew, if you could elaborate a bit on this.
I made my first experiments with frozen apples in 1992, again in 94, a few
batches since and this year, I have 2 batchs of cider from 100% frozen
apples. I actually pressed my last batch last weekend - it is now just
starting to ferment after the apples spent all winter in the freezer. Up to
now, I haven't seen any inconvenient in pressing apples that had been
frozen. The ciders I got this way have always been excellent, comparable to
my best batches obtained "the regular way".
I can see many advantages in using frozen apples for cider:
1) It's less work as grinding is unnessary. Thawn apples are extremely soft
and press readily without clogging the press.
2) Yield is greatly increased: last weekend I got a yield of close to 80%
in weight with my hand screw press (i.e. 20 litres of juice at a density of
1.060, which makes 21 kg of juice, from 27 kg of apples). I seldom get a
better yield than 50% the normal way.
3) The juice out of the press is very clear - like juice bought in the store.
4) This last weekend, the juice was very pink. Somehow in the process, the
pigmentation of the skin passed into the juice. This didn't always happen
and I have to investigate to find why.
5) It is possible to increase the strength of the cider without adding
sugar by pressing apples that are not completely thawn. In January, I
pressed one batch that gave me a juice density of 1.080 with a variety
(Cortland) that usually give a juice density between 1.055 and 1.060. Once
fully fermented, this should give me a cider with 11% alchool. This
fermentation is going smoothly, the density was down to 1.012 a few days
ago. This way, however, the yield in juice was very low: 30% in weight.
6) Freezing overripe apples is a way to save them when I didn't have time
to press them at the right moment.
I have to say that the juice out of the press tastes different than juice
obtained from unfrozen apples. It is more licorous and the aroma is also
different. However, once fermented into cider, these differences tend to
disappear and there is no really noticeable difference in cider taste - at
least no more than between two batches from slightly different mixtures of
varieties.
A word of caution, however: I don't think that the use of apples that would
have endured many cycles of freezing-thawing would be acceptable. In the
Quebec climate, we can put apples outside by mid-December and be sure they
stay frozen until March. But that's not the case everywhere... and a large
freezer would then be required.
So, considering all the advantages I see in the use of frozen apples, I'd
be interested in knowing about the other side of the medail. Are there
things that I haven't seen?
Claude Jolicoeur, Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: movie anyone?
From: kathy/jim <kbooth@scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 09:55:50 -0400
This is a post I lifted from the Historic Brewing list, and I thot the
cider folks who didn't double, might enjoy. jim booth, lansing, mi
From: "Abbott, Ruth" <r-abbott@oar-xch1.oar.uiuc.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 13:22:49 -0500
Subject: hist-brewing: A Movie for Historic Brewers
I was much surprised last night when I happened to watch an old Bette Davis
movie called "June Bride" last night. The father of the family in the movie
offered a visitor from NYC a drink in a rather hushed voice. He said, "My
wife is temperance," by way of explanation for the secrecy. He then opened
an out-of-the-way window, and pulled up a cord, at the end of which was a
gallon sized crockery jug. He said to the other fellow that it was full of
cider and that his wife keeps putting the cork back in the jug, which stops
it from fermenting. The man from NYC seems dubious that mere cider could be
worth drinking. As the drinks are being poured, he asks what is that
strange sound of clanking in the jug. The father explains that he lets it
freeze a bit, too, and that is just ice. Still looking dubious, the city
man takes a swallow, and is obviously affected by the high alcohol content.
The next we see him, the jug is empty (it was probably half or a third full
to start with), and he is wasted. All he can say is, "The apple is our friend."
Alix
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Flavour Descriptors
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@csi.com>
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 16:37:58 +0100
Like I promised last week, I've now put a list of cider flavour
descriptors on my website. It emanates from the draft list used by the
National Association of Cidermakers in the UK. You can find it by going
to my website (address below) - the link to the page is then found in
the left-hand menu bar at the end of the 'Science of Cidermaking' list.
Some of you will be interested - others of you will regard it as
descriptive overkill. Takes all sorts!!
Andrew Lea
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.oxfordonline.co.uk/cider OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Calvados Boulard
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 9 May 99 21:57:55 MDT (Sun)
Does anyone have information about the status of Calvados Boulard import
into the US? I haven't seen it for quite a while (almost 2 years?). I had
heard that it fell into a crack when one giant importer handed off its
portfolio to another but not quite everything was transferred. Might have
been Bacardi on one end or the other of the deal.
Anyway, Boulard was, to my taste, a good mid-range calvados that had been
dependable and dependably available...something that seems fairly rare now.
I see the somewhat lower range (Gilbert, Anee'), and Laird's which is
blended with neutral spirit into evanescence, and the relatively high end
($35+ US per bottle) but not much in between.
If only we could get Somerset Royal...sigh...
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Low acidity
From: "Eddy Hefford" <ehefford@nescot.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:47:16 +0100
I have a batch of last year's cider which suffers from low acidity, I reckon
it is about 4.5 using narrow range papers. I intend to add malic acid to
improve its keeping qualities. What ph should I be aiming for? Are there
other factors which should be taken into account? I should have a half
decent ph meter by then to make it a little more objective.
------------------------------
Subject: TA titration
From: John.Wilkinson@aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:26:33 -0500
I have read somewhere, possibly here, the pH number at which the tell tale color
change takes place when titrating to find total acidity but can't find that
number now.
Does anyone know the number? It seems it would be easier when testing dark
musts (like red wine) and possibly more accurate even for lighter musts like
traditional mead or cider.
Am I hopelessly confused or would it be a good idea, assuming I have a pH meter,
which I do, to determine the balance point in a TA titration using the pH meter
rather than depending on the color change?
John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas
------------------------------
Subject: Perry (Planning Ahead)
From: "Chris Hebert" <CRH@rflaw.com>
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 16:18:07 -0400
Last summer, while knowing better, I made a Perry with regular ole Bosc
Pears. I knew there are better varieties, but being the end of the season
and crushed for time, I couldn't wait.
The Perry has been waiting for about nine months now, and it very subtle.
Maybe too subtle. So, this year, I wanted to plan ahead and try to find
better varieties, better yeast strain and maybe make better Perry.
So, is there any literature out there? If not, can I get some suggestions
on varieties and strains from people in the know?
Chris Hebert.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #809
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