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Cider Digest #0871
Subject: Cider Digest #871, 11 August 2000
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #871 11 August 2000
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Tasting Cider ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
pectin enzyme ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Re: Splenda (Carolyn Wood)
Re: Cider Digest #870, 1 August 2000 (Stephen Butts)
Re: Cider Digest #870, 1 August 2000 (Warren Place)
tasting a few English ciders (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Tasting Cider
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:45:57 -0700
My wife and I were comparing a 99 cider vintage 99 with a 97 cider vintage.
The differences were apparent. The 97 vintage cider was mellow, smooth but
not bland. The 99 had a lemon flavor and a apple aroma. I think both were
made in a similar fashion, blended bittersweets, bittersharps, and sweets
fermented dry with a wine yeast. In trying to define the difference, the 99
seems to have a very pleasant depth, and the 99 a really nice freshness. How
do other cider tasters feel about this?
------------------------------
Subject: pectin enzyme
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:45:59 -0700
Andrews recommendation to use a pectin enzyme to produce a clear cider is
right on. Our unfiltered product has a lovely golden hue and appears to be
stable in the bottle and on the shelf.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Splenda
From: Carolyn Wood <natvwine@cut.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:22:53 -0600
Andrew wrote:
> Yet I know that retention of natural sweetness is one of the
>most difficult problems a craft cidermaker has to address (witness
>many postings on this Digest) and that nearly all mainstream
>commercial ciders are artificially sweetened (saccharin and acesulfame
>are widespread in the UK). What do other people feel?
As a commercial maker of ciders, meads and fruit wines, this issue
has come to the forefront for our winery. Most of the people that come
to our tasting/sales room have convinced themselves (and say so) that
they prefer dry wines/ ciders. However, given the choice, they will
almost always BUY sweeter beverages (European tourists seem to be the
exception here).
Since we have refused to add any sulfites or other chemicals to our
products, this has been a big problem for us. As a result, we are
curently experimenting with pasteurization.
I must say I was somewhat suprised to hear that you wouldn't dream
of adding sucralose to wine-but apparently will accept the addition of
sodium metabisulfite?
All the best, Bob, Utah, USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #870, 1 August 2000
From: Stephen Butts <stephen.j.butts@lawrence.edu>
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 09:01:20 -0500
Cider colleagues --
FWIW, I side with Andrew on the use of artificial sweetners: it's sort
of, well, cheating. Let me hasten to add that my comment itself is
cheating because it's cheap and easy for me to say: I much prefer very
dry cider and thus am not faced with a serious need to obtain a sweet
cider. But let me tell you of a batch I did last fall. I picked a mix of
apples (mostly Cortlands with some Northern Spys and Gravensteins) at an
orchard about 30 miles away from my usual supplier and decided as an
experiment to let this new orchard's wild yeasts have their way with the
must. To my surprise, instead of the robust, roiling primary fermentation
that usually occurs, a very slow, steady, quiet one began and kept up for
nearly 6 months. It produced something between a chapeau blanc and a
chapeau brun (see Andrew's website for an explanation) and a clear brew
when I racked it. I tried some manipulation of temperature but to no
avail: I couldn't kill it nor speed it up. I finally bottled the stuff
in July (sic!) and the S.G. had dropped from 1.055 to only 1.025 or so
instead of my usual less-than-1.000 reading. The cider is sweet but not
cloyingly so and retains more of an apple juice aroma and aftertaste than
the more-fully fermented batches of yore. Most importantly, the sweetness
has none of the artificial quality that I've noticed from sugar
substitutes (although I've not tried sucralose). I suspect that due to
the low alcohol this batch will not be long-lasting, but I bet it will
last a year and in the bottle should develop some nice, completely natural
carbonation.
Upshot: if you really must have sweet cider, hey, it's a free country,
use what works for you. But it IS possible (admittedly, with luck) to
find a yeast, apple and nutrient mix that doesn't directly head towards
0.999 the moment you press it. Happy hunting.
- -- Steve Butts
Buttss@Lawrence.edu
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #870, 1 August 2000
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:12:27 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
> But as a craft cidermaker I feel uneasy about artificial
> sweeteners, not from any issue of food safety but simply because it's a
> 'cop-out' and makes life too easy. We wouldn't dream of adding it to
> wine or beer, so why to cider? Yet I know that retention of natural
> sweetness is one of the most difficult problems a craft cidermaker has
> to address (witness many postings on this Digest) and that nearly all
> mainstream commercial ciders are artificially sweetened (saccharin and
> acesulfame are widespread in the UK). What do other people feel?
> Andrew Lea
Since I made the first post on the subject, I have become less
enthusiastic about using Splenda to sweeten cider. Not because it isn't a
great sweetener, it works very well (retains sweetness and no bottles
exploding). After my last 5 gal batch, I found that I prefer my cider a
little drier. I still need some Splenda to take the edge off the cider,
but I'm not making stuff quite as sweet as the likes of
Woodpecker, Woodchuck and Wyders. I DO certainly like Splenda for making
my like more simple! You can do things the hard way, if that's what you
enjoy. After many failed attempts at sweet cider, I'm greatly relieved to
find a near foolproof method for sweet cider production. Oh, and I have
no problem with adding Spenda to wine or beer. Now my lactose intolerant
friends can enjoy a sweet stout with me w/o abdominal cramping. ;-)
------------------------------
Subject: tasting a few English ciders
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 11 Aug 00 22:05:00 MDT (Fri)
I've owed this article to the digest for some time now...
Notes in two Cider Digests a while ago touched on a visit we made to
England in mid-May. We were fortunate enough to have connected with a
couple of CD subscribers in the past, and we were able to connect again
and have some nice tastings and visits. I'll try to focus on the matter
of cider and avoid making this a travelogue as much as possible. Sorry
for the length.
Our group was:
* myself--first visit to England in 1994 (see below), visited again in
1996, 1998, and this visit in 2000
* my wife Diane--born in England, lived there for 14 years before coming
to US, learned enough about cider when she was young to push me to try
it and then seek the good stuff
* Charlie Price--long-time friend of both of us, on his first visit
...plus, on the second day (Hartland and Minchew)...
* Andrew Lea--frequent and knowledgable contributor to the Cider Digest,
and amateur cider-maker
* Roy Bailey--proprietor of Lambourn Valley Cider, occasional contributor
to the CD, a jovial fellow who helped us make several connections
We visited
* Burrow Hill (Kingsbury Episcopi, nr Martock, Somerset)
* Heck's (Street, Somerset)
* Hartland (Tirley, Gloucestershire)
* Minchew (Aston Cross, nr Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire)
and also tasted cider from
* Lambourn Valley Cider (Hungerford, Berkshire)
inasmuch as Roy Bailey, proprietor of Lambourn Valley, had arranged the
visits with Hartland and Minchew.
In addition, we tasted cider from
* West County Cider (Colrain, Massachusetts, USA)
as well as cider home-made by
* Andrew Lea (Little Wittenham, Oxfordshire)
...both of which were very well received.
No, we didn't do all in one day! Burrow Hill and Heck's came first.
_ _ _ _ _
Burrow Hill (proprietor: Julian Temperley) is special to me: on my first
trip to England, in September 1994, this was the first place I tasted a
real English cider. I later found out that this was a bit like being
introduced to red wine with a good Bordeaux...we were *very* lucky.
It took more than a couple of sips to adjust my palate from the sweet alco-
pop of US commercial ciders to the bone-dry, slightly rough but rich taste
of an English farmhouse style...but it caught me. Although I'd made some
dry ciders of my own prior to that time, it's significant that I first
tried this English style in September 1994, and found it compelling enough
that when Jay Hersh wanted to hand off the Cider Digest a couple months
later, it felt like my calling to take it on.
Burrow Hill has blended ciders available for tasting and purchase in cask
on premises. I find the dry to my liking, but a bit edgy; I like to get a
container of mostly dry with a bit of the sweet and then I'm quite happy
(until the jug runs out!). I don't know what's in the blend, but I recall
on a previous visit that we saw various apples in huge bins--Dabinett, Yar-
lington Mill, Bulmer's Norman, Tremlett's Bitter, and Harry Master's
Jersey. No idea what of these go into the "house blend". They also have
two "single varietals" (here we go again?) done up as bottle-conditioned
sparkling (methode Champenoise): Kingston Black and Stoke Red. We had a
bottle of each of these last time we visited, in late 1998; they were
excellent. Use them as you would use Champagne (the real stuff).
Thirdly, Burrow Hill makes cider brandy. The concept is just what you
would expect, the analog of (grape) brandy but made from cider, distilled
and aged in wood. We have had their 3-year, 5-year, and just this trip we
have their 10-year. In terms of character and development (not referring
strictly to age), these would come down to rough equivalents of a VS,
VSOP, and XO brandy/cognac. They are not cheap! But they are worth the
price.
Mr Temperley was not there when we visited, but we had met him on our
previous visits in '94, '96, and '98. He has a wonderful knowledge of
cider, both the art and the practice, and has managed to wend his way
through the bureaucratic nonsense on the way to continuing to make good
cider at a profit (with a lot more grief for the sparkling) and even the
brandy. He has, shall we say, acquired a few strong opinions along the
way (and I don't blame him), on which he is willing to expound.
_ _ _ _ _
At Heck's, in Street (hey, Yanks, that's a *town* name), we met the pro-
prietress, whom we had also met on our previous visit but I have now
neglected twice to learn her name. She showed us around the premises,
which we had previously glimpsed (fall '98) during press time when it was
quite busy. They have a nice farm shop with local produce alongside their
cider business.
They had a number of varietal ciders that we tasted from cask--some done up
a bit sweet, some bone-dry. Some of these were available in bottle in the
shop; others I had the idea were available for tasting but would eventually
be blended into a final product. The ciders which were for sale around
front (for filling your bottle or jug) were a blend that was quite nice and
a Kingston Black that was wonderful (or so I remember from the bits that
Charlie would let me have:-). We tasted the KB on premises too, and the
jug we brought home lived up to the promise of the cask tasting.
I'm a bit fuzzy on all of what was available where, but I know that both
Dabinett and Yarlington Mill were available in bottle. We skipped the YM
but brought home a bottle of Dabinett. It was good, but lacking acidity;
cf notes in CD 863. All things considered, I think Minchew's Dabinett was
slightly better (to the extent one can trust one's memory across 9 days and
5000 miles:-) but still, both would have benefited from blending.
There was a Morgan Sweet, which was interesting because this is a straight
sweet apple, but the cider was not so far out of balance as one might want
to expect. As I think of it, I remember Julian Temperley telling us, I
think in 1998, that they still made a Morgan Sweet cider for their local
customers who wanted it.
There was a Vilbery (Vil[e]berie?) as well, which none of us cared for
much.
We also had a perry, unknown variety of pear, which we liked and brought
back a bottle.
_ _ _ _ _
We visited Dereck Hartland, of Hartland's Farmhouse Cider and Perry, for a
morning visit and a lunchtime chat. This was a most convivial visit and
tour, of which I'm glad because if anyone had taken offense to us they
could have left us behind and we'd even now be wandering back roads of
Gloucestershire, trying to peek over the hedgerows to see where we were or
trying to find the sun to decide compass directions!
Dereck is carrying on after his father Ray, producing farmhouse style cider
and perry. He had 3 items to serve from cask: dry and sweet cider, and a
perry (fairly dry). Dereck is quiet and reserved, but quite comfortable
with what he's doing--he's a cider-maker and a farmer, with good cider and
a well-kept farm.
While we were there, we had some discussion of varieties of apple and pear,
but there was no real focus on them. Rather, it was a matter of tasting
the final result and approving it. That is, one might taste his dry cider
and say that there was a bit too much or too little of this or that, or
(more likely) that it was just fine, but there was no issue of "what if
you'd used more variety <x> in the blend?"
I would happily sit back and drink any of Dereck's three. My first choice
would be the perry, which had this nice subtle way of saying "wouldn't you
like just a little bit more?"
_ _ _ _ _
In the afternoon of the day we visited Hartland, we also visited Minchew.
Dereck Hartland and Kevin Minchew could hardly be opposite in more ways...
yet they are both deeply involved in cider-making, concerned about preser-
ving the craft, and actively producing good cider.
I've made some comments about Kevin Minchew's cider in the digest before
last. I would like to clarify that I don't find any faults in Kevin's
ciders--they are extraordinarily clean and well-made. If I could buy any
of them here, I would do so.
Whereas Dereck tends to step back and let his ciders do the talking for
him, Kevin likes to discuss his ciders in detail. What we tasted of
Kevin's were almost all single varietals, so there was a great deal to be
said about the variety, the orchards, etc.
I remain of the opinion that "single varietal" should be used only for a
few particular apple varieties, but I think that some of Kevin's singles
can nonetheless become commercially successful if he can find the right
audiences for them.
We tasted the following:
* '97 Dabinett: soft, straw color, nutty. Wants acid
* '98 Yarlington Mill: dark, a bit more sharp, some fruity character
* '99 Somerset Redstreak: nice aroma, not much tannin, OK
* Foxwhelp: wonderful aroma but *very* sharp
* Kingston Black: good example of its kind, well balanced
* Stoke Red: best of the lot.
Given an opportunity to buy any of these, I'd buy the Stoke Red and the
Kingston Black in alternation, starting with the Stoke Red.
We also tasted 3 perries:
* A Huffcap, finished and moderately dry
* a blend, finished
* An Oldfield, still fermenting after 31 months and somewhat sweet
All were good, worth seeking out. The Oldfield was the most attractive on
the surface, as one young and a bit sweet can be.;-) It certainly left you
wondering what it would be like in a year or two. And all of the perries
reinforced the idea that perry pears are a world apart.
_ _ _ _ _
Any of these cider-makers are well worth the time to seek out. But call
ahead, and _get_ _good_ _directions_ before you go!
_ _ _ _ _
After the second day of visiting cideries, we returned to Andrew's and
tasted several more ciders, among them one of Roy's (my notes aren't good
on the evening), one that we had brought from West County in Massachu-
setts, and one of Andrew's. Perhaps Andrew has some better notes on the
evening's ciders. (No, I wasn't drunk! But we'd tasted so many ciders in
the space of a couple days that my notes eventually became cryptic.) I
don't have a note of which of Roy's ciders we had, save that it wasn't his
"standard" Lambourn Valley cider. I've commented before that Roy makes
sharper-than-usual ciders, and here the opportunity of tasting it with a
good meal (graciously provided by the Lea's) proved out that the extra
acidity is helpful, even desirable, against food. I'm not sure how or
where one finds the Lambourn Valley ciders (Roy, that's your cue:-), but
they're worth seeking out particularly if you like the sharper style. To
put that in perspective, they *are* balanced ciders, not as sharp (nor to
my taste, as thin) as what you'd find in the Kentish style.
The standout cider for the evening, to me, was the West County. This is a
blend which includes several English and American cider apple varieties...
I think the selection varies from year to year. It's the one they label
simply "West County Cider". (Terry Maloney is the proprietor of West
County and he's an occasional contributor to CD; perhaps he can tell us
more about that cider.) The reason I found it notable is that it held a
little bit of sweetness (although you wouldn't actually call it "sweet")
and had real body, almost a richness. I'm not sure how to describe it
other than that if you've occasionally had a cider that you'd describe as
"thin" or "mean", this would be the opposite. At the time, Andrew wondered
whether the cider had been back-sweetened with a bit of juice after fer-
mentation...but he later changed his mind and decided this was unlikely.
(Terry also confirmed in email that this was not the case.) Andrew's later
guess was that the character was helped along by the use of russets in the
blend. (I forget now whether this West County had Roxbury or Golden
Russet.) Andrew said that he'd tasted something similar in English cider
that included (I believe) Egremont Russet. And once again, here's a cider
worth seeking out, if you're in the US.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #871
*************************
