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Cider Digest #0858
Subject: Cider Digest #858, 18 April 2000
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #858 18 April 2000
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #857, 16 April 2000 (Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au)
RE: 550 channels and nothing on? ("Tim Green")
RE: Cider Digest #857, 16 April 2000 ("Brian Lundeen")
New Commercial Cider ("Philip J Wilcox")
Planting trees ("Sean Cox")
Drinking cider (Chad Petersen)
Re: Ace Ciders / Cider Tasting Notes (Tim Bray)
Re: 550 channels and nothing on? (Tim Bray)
New Wyeast strain for cider (Warren Place)
Re: Cider Digest #857, 16 April 2000 (Skylnscrn@aol.com)
Northwest Ciders? ("Roger Flanders")
better (Cider Digest)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #857, 16 April 2000
From: Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:07:17 +1000
Hang on, hang on, here in the southern hemisphere we ARE making cider. As far as
I am concerned no traffic from this end simply means too busy with the rest of
life getting in the way!
Here's a query:
Has anyone done a comparative fermentation on types of juice, namely, a straight
cider variety versus a non-cider juice?
This year I have 25 litres of straight Yarlington Mill fermenting next to 25
litres of juice from a mix of dessert apples. There is only one other variable
as far as I can tell (except for not knowing the length of time that the apples
sat after harvest before pressing) and that is that the juice blend sat in a
coolroom for a week and hadn't climbed to ambient temeperature at the point of
pitching the yeast (ambient temp was a reasonably warm autumn day of about 20
degrees C), whereas the Yarlington Mill was juiced and not refrigerated for 2 to
3 days prior to yeast being pitched, but had been outside so I suspect it would
have bneen around the 15 degree mark - I didn't have the time to ake the temp,
but to touch the plastic fermenter was quite chilly. Active yeast was pitched,
being a 50/50 mix of all purpose wine yeast and mead yeast (all I could get my
hands on in a hurry). The Yarlington Mill is fermenting with a frothy beer like
head while the other does not have a head but is running with a steady stream of
bubbles coming to the surface. The SG of the YM was 1.062, the other 1.070, and
they are both fermenting outside under cover, with overnight temps starting to
drop to around 8 - 12 deg C, and they catch some afternoon sun. The YM smells
superb, the other smells just pretty damn good. The YM juice, OTOH was pretty
unpalatable.
Is there usually THAT much differnece to be expected with a vintage cider apple?
Rod
------------------------------
Subject: RE: 550 channels and nothing on?
From: "Tim Green" <timothygreen@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:44:14 -0400
Hi All,
I just bottled 2 batches of cherry cider that I put up in october.
Each 6 gallon batch was made up from 3 gallons of sweetened fresh cherry
juice and 3 gallons of fresh pressed apple juice. The only difference
between the way the batches were handled was yeast in one batch I used an
ale yeast and in the other a wine yeast. I tend not to use the indiginous
yeast in the apple juice because whatever yeast it is, it tends toward foul
smells and flavors. The odors will disappear after a few months, but the off
flavors won't age out, at least not after 2 years anyway.
The batch made with the wine yeast (Lavin EC-11180) was smooth with no off
flavors, very dry and seemed mostly well balance. I stabilized and sweetened
the cider with a bit of honey and bottled it.
The other batch which was made using cooper's ale yeast was absolutely dry
and bland. I think that the acid balance is off by whole bunch. Can anyone
tell me what the acid level should be near and what acid I sould . (private
email ok!)
In the absence of any information, I added a small bit of acid blend to a
bottle of the cider and it woke it up considerably.
Thanks in advance,
Tim Green
Novice cider maker
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #857, 16 April 2000
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen@rrc.mb.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:38:02 -0500
> ...Do we really have *nothing* to say?
>
> It worries me, as reader as much as janitor, that there's been nothing
> coming in other than hideous spam that gets tossed away.
Well, we could always flame each other like they do on Homebrew Digest. That
makes up at least half of each issue. ;-)
Well, I'll toss this out and see what kind of discussion ensues. I live in
Manitoba, Canada. I do not have access to the varieties of apples that have
traditionally been used for good cider. I have access to locally grown types
such as Goodland, Norland, some type of crabapple, plus the usual eating and
cooking apples brought in from BC and Ontario, such as Spartan, Macintosh,
Granny Smith, Delicious, etc. Any thoughts on what sort of blend would make
for a decent cider?
Failing that, about the only other option I have is concentrate or some
unpasteurized, unpreserved fresh juice (composition unknown) that a grocery
chain sells. Anyone have any experience using products like these? In
general, does juice intended for drinking translate into a good fermented
cider?
Brian
------------------------------
Subject: New Commercial Cider
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox@cmsenergy.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:56:21 -0400
On my recent pubcrawl of Germany and the Czech Republic we found it kinda funny
that everyplace we went there was the obligatory Irish bar. We avoided them all
the way till the last day, It was our host, and hostess's favorite bar in
Stuttgart. They were advertising a cider with the banner "Worlds most popular
Cider" It was called Strongbow. It had a mild aroma of apples, a slightly thin
mouthfeel with some sweetness And interestingly enough it had a nice dry finish
for balance. It was not overcarbonated but it was served too cold. Over all it
was quite nice. Anybody else have this? Has anybody seen it in the USA???
Phil WIlcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Bumblefrog Cider and Meadery
------------------------------
Subject: Planting trees
From: "Sean Cox" <sean_cox@gdt1.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:03:10 -0400
Greetings all,
Having just moved into a new house, I've started thinking about planting
apple trees. I'm looking for suggestions as to what varieties might be
most suitable based upon the following factors:
I'm in central New Hampshire (UDSA zone 4 or so).
Most of the apples will be fermented (with token fruit used for apple pies
:-)
I'm planning on putting in 3-4 trees.
The soil is sandy/rocky but lots of compost will be available to them.
They'll be on a SW facing slope with plenty of drainage, downhill from a
mixed stand of trees (pine, oak, beech) in a thickly forested area
(they'll have full sun in a small clearing).
I expect somewhat acidic soil (based upon the pine needles littering the
area).
I want to be able to acquire them for planting this Spring.
The Mrs. and I tend to prefer more strongly flavored ciders (more English
than US style), and flavor is more important to me than yield.
On a related note, has anyone found bears to be a problem for their trees?
The area I'm in has lots of black bears, and I know they love the beech
nuts, but do they bother apples? Any hints to dealing with them if they
do?
Thanks in advance,
- --Sean
Andover, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Drinking cider
From: Chad Petersen <Chad.Petersen@wwu.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:24:37 -0700
I just tried a glass of my cider last night and it was very nice. Dry as
dry can be. I siphoned a carafe off the carboy. I enjoyed it very much. I
suppose it is about done fermenting, or should I hold off and let it age a
bit more. I have not noticed a malolactic fermentation coming on since the
weather is warming up, so maybe it will not happen. Do I need to do
anything to encourage that? This is my first cider, so any help would be
appreciated. I have two mostly full carboys sitting out there.
Also, I was looking at presses and found that they are not inexpensive.
<big surprise I know.> Anyway, I put an ad in our local free ad newspaper
asking for an old press or perhaps even parts for cheap. Now I have two
presses! One has a nice grinder, a decent screw and a single basket. The
other has a marginal grinder and a marvelous screw with a great big cast
iron crosspiece. I have my summer project all lined out! I think I will
put another ad in the paper and see what else I can come up with.
Out in the orchard, I have planted 3 new Kingston Black apple trees and the
are all getting ready to bloom! I am excited!
Chad
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Ace Ciders / Cider Tasting Notes
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:50:16 -0700
The tasting notes were very interesting - thanks for posting them!
You were more generous with the Ace than I would be. The pear "cider" is a
little better than the apple cider, but still not very good, IMHO. I'd
give the Pear a 5 and the Apple a 4. Maybe I should try it again...
I liked Wyder's`cider much better, but can't really put a rating on it yet.
I can't seem to find the apple or pear cider in stores here any more - for
some reason, they only have Wyder's Peach cider, which sounds too weird for
me.
I agree with you on the Dry Blackthorn, although I have not tasted it in
years; I quit drinking it because of the sour, dry character.
Being a huge fan of the Norman style, I really like the Herout Fils, when I
can get it. You should look for Duche' de Longueville "Muscadet de
Dieppe," which is similar but even better; richer, deeper.
Now I have to go find some of the "Wild Country" - have never seen it in
stores here (CA). Also will have to try the Woodpecker again and report back.
One problem with the comparison is that the styles are so different - would
you have a comparative tasting with California Chardonnay, St-Emilion,
Pinot Noir, Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon, and Port? I like Normandy
style cider, so none of the English style ciders are going to compare very
well.
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: 550 channels and nothing on?
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:15:48 -0700
Hey, I tried - nobody responded about cider apples for low-chill areas. Is
there no information available, or is the information a closely-guarded
secret?
In a few years, I can let you know how I fare with the following
newly-planted varieties:
Ashmead's Kernel, Bedan, Binet Rouge, Black Twig, Brown's Apple, Cox's
Orange Pippin, Golden Russet, Granny Smith, Gravenstein, Karmijn de
Sonnaville, King David, Kingston Black, Major, Margil, Muscadet de Dieppe,
Muscat de Bernay, Noel de Champs, Porter's Perfection, Red Vein Crab, Rhode
Island Greening, Roxbury Russet, Stoke Red, Sweet Coppin, Wealthy, Whitney
Crab, Wickson Apple, Yarlington Mill
Actually, I think I can already report that Gravenstein does pretty well
here... ;->
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: New Wyeast strain for cider
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:48:56 -0700 (PDT)
There has been some interesting discussion in rec.crafts.winemaking lately
about cider. Specifically, people have mentioned Wyeast makes a cider
strain #3766. Since there hasn't been much activity in the digest
recently, I thought now would be a good time to survey the results people
have had with this strain? Can it be used for sweet cider of low alcohol
levels. The web page says it ferments dry. http://www.wyeastlab.com/
Warren Place
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #857, 16 April 2000
From: Skylnscrn@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:39:27 EDT
<If your cider is less than perfect, then why aren't you asking questions?>
Ok my cider isn't perfect, up until last year I have only used the "wild"
yeast that was lucky enought to accompany the apples to the press, with 1 1/2
cups of raisins added to my 5 gal. batch. The apples used were run of the
mill sweet cider mix, macs, red & ye delicious, empires, cortland and
whatever else we felt like blending in. This probably isnt the best blend
for hard cider, but as we are primarily making cider to sell at our fruit
stand as "sweet cider" this is what I use. This January I graduated to using
yeast, (fleischmanns yeast for bread). The addition of "clean" yeast really
smoothed out the flavor and has encouraged me to add yeast from now on. My
current batch is fermenting with a packet of Coopers brewing yeast. Anyone
have any favorite yeast suggestions ?
Tom in Western Mass.
------------------------------
Subject: Northwest Ciders?
From: "Roger Flanders" <flanders@probe.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:02:06 -0500
We'll be driving from Nebraska to Bellingham, Washington, in late May
to visit our daughter. Chad Petersen recently suggested I try the
Spire Mountain Cider available in the Bellingham area. (Thank you for
the tip, Chad.) Does anyone on the list have other suggestions?
What's the "Ultimate Cider Tour" of the Great Northwest? We probably
will drive out via I-90 across Montana, then return via Yakima and
Salt Lake City and I-80. Any recommendations would be appreciated.
- --Rog Flanders
------------------------------
Subject: better
From: cider@raven.talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: 18 Apr 00 15:10:57 MDT (Tue)
That's more like it! (Don't worry about this digest being large; it's the
expected response to a plea for material. Some folks just need a little
nudge sometimes.)
Thanks, folks.
- ---
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #858
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