Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #0831
Subject: Cider Digest #831, 13 October 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #831 13 October 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
re: Pasteurisation of apple juice (Dick Dunn)
to Sulphite (or sulfite) or not (Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au)
Cider Digest - a simple matter of ignorance (Fluffy Bunny)
English Cider Varieties (Murray Johnson)
Re: Cider Digest #830, 7 October 1999 ("William Rhyne")
Re: serving the kids (T.J. Higgins)
Pasteurisation ("Eddy Hefford")
re: Sulfiting (Dick Dunn)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available for anonymous FTP at ftp.stanford.edu
in pub/clubs/homebrew/cider.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: re: Pasteurisation of apple juice
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 7 Oct 99 21:46:58 MDT (Thu)
Roy Bailey <lvcider@westberks.demon.co.uk> took the traditionalist position
in the last CD. Among other things...
> I quote Ian Wyder in Digest no. 826, 'I have in fact fermented thousands
> of gallons of flash pasteurized apple juice. I cannot say it was the
> best but it certainly was drinkable - fruit characteristics were lacking
> somewhat.'
>
> What an indictment of the process! Surely the whole point of making our
> own cider is to produce something very special, otherwise we might as
> well buy the bland stuff from the big producers and save ourselves the
> trouble.
Depends on what you can get, Roy. You've got it better in the UK than we
have it in most places here in the US. There have been times/places where
you wouldn't have had to make a very good cider to do better than what we
can buy.
I suspect that Ian Wyder's definition of "drinkable" might be a fairly high
standard; that he was producing cider that was pretty good by most of our
criteria but simply not up to what he wanted or knew was possible.
> Let me make a radical suggestion. Do as the makers of real cider do in
> this country. Take a batch of ripe apples of several different
> varieties, mince them up, squeeze out the juice, let it ferment on its
> own yeast, rack occasionally, and drink after about 6 or 8 months.
There's an American saying, "Freedom of the press belongs to the person who
owns one." True of apples too. For example, the reason most folks don't
ferment with the yeast on the apples is that they can't get juice with
enough live, healthy yeast in it. (Even if you press the apples yourself,
you have to get close enough to the source that they haven't gone through a
sanitizing wash and polishing/waxing steps. Forget the grocer for that.)
The problem with using several varieties to get a good blend is that it's
rare to be able to find apples with enough tannin...this is why people end
up adding tannin. For that matter, it can even be hard to find apples
with enough acid. (Yes, there are workarounds, like using crabapples to
get the tannin, but they're vexing to grind. And yes, Granny Smith has the
acid, but they tend to be [and remain] hard, and give a little juice after
a lot of effort.) All of this doctoring-up you see...well, too much of it
is done to try to offset the shortcomings in the apples we can get.
I'm speaking mainly about the US, of course...but what we need here are
good sources of apples and/or juice. If we had that, you'd see fewer
workarounds. Don't be too critical of people who are doing the best they
can without the best of apples.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.
------------------------------
Subject: to Sulphite (or sulfite) or not
From: Rod.McDonald@facs.gov.au
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:05:51 +1000
How hard is it to maintain a sufficient level of cleanliness?
I am now in my third year of real cider making, and have been making mead, fruit
wine and beer for close to twenty years.
I am also guilty of the occasional bout of neglectfulness. It is now close to 15
years since I touched a campden tablet and I haven't had ANY spoilage that would
have been averted through the use of sulphur. IMHO sulphite is more trouble than
it is worth. The last couple of times I used it (failures ingrained on my
memory) were (a) a large batch of fresh chopped figs sulphited, but the natural
yeasts took over anyway (which at that stage I thought undesirable) and (b) a
significant quantity of fresh rosehips chopped (representing a large investment
in wounds to the hands and arms) and sulphited and as it turned out
over-sulphited after the fig episode - consequently never fermented (and it even
poisoned part of the compost heap). I have since made a number of rosehip
meads/wines without sulphite - no worries!
In my experience sufficient cleanliness is simple - washed and recently
sterilised equipment and containers (and not necessarily chemically sterilized),
minimise exposure of the ingredients to possible souces of contamination which
could spoil or acetify, keep an eye on the air lock, and unless chancing a
natural yeast fermentation make sure the yeast used is going hammer and tongs
before it is pitched and the temp is OK for a quick initial establishment of the
yeast colony.
And the results speak for themselves.
As for oxidation, once again a bit of care after fermentation, coupled with the
recognition that oxidation before fermentatiopn contributes positively to the
result - Andrew Lea and others can be a bit more authoritative on the reasons
why.
Just my two zacs worth.
Rod
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Digest - a simple matter of ignorance
From: Fluffy Bunny <the.fluffy.bunny@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:08:24 -0500
Hello All:
I have been on this list for a while and readily admit I am in "over my
head". I know nothing about making cider. In an attempt to remedy this
situation would someone kindly steer me toward some "good" publications
on the process?
Thanking you in advance for any consideration you give this matter,
Kevin
------------------------------
Subject: English Cider Varieties
From: Murray Johnson <mgjohn@lynx.org>
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 07:44:14 -0400
Ontario cider enthusiasts may be interested to know that we have mature
trees in our orchard of Bulmer's Norman, Yarlington Mill and Tremlett's
Bitter. This orchard is in Grey County near Thornbury. Scion wood
could be obtained next spring, and budwood next August. At the moment
we have extra bushels of these varieties available as apples or pressed
into juice.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #830, 7 October 1999
From: "William Rhyne" <billrhyne@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:07:20 PDT
RE: Pasteurization and sweet or semi-sweet hard cider styles
There seems to be some strong feelings about pasteurization amongst the list
and since I have mentioned our methods for pasteurizing, I thought that I
might explain how we arrived at the decision to pasteurize in the bottle.
In the French style of cider making, there are three styles that we looked
at--dry (totally fermented), semi-sweet, and sweet. They accomplish the
semi-sweet and sweet versions by racking the cider until there is not enough
yeast and nutrients to continue the fermentation so the fermentation stops.
These ciders will have alcohol levels of 2%-4% typically. When we started to
make our cider, we felt that the dry version didn't have enough body or
character so we set out to attempt to make a semi-sweet cider.
Many home cider makers would tell us about the flavor of the cider that they
had fermenting in the fridge that was slightly still sweet but mostly
fermented. That is the flavor that we are trying to capture on a larger and
more consistent scale.
Another issue was aroma. During the fermentation stage, the barn smells
really nice but I realized that the apple aroma was evaporating away and not
staying in the bottle. During our market research, people (right or wrong)
were confused when we offered samples because the cider tasted somewhat like
champagne or white wine, not apple juice as they expected. We felt that it
would be nice if our product retained the apple character that people like
and expect.
In large factories, they have a trap that captures this aroma and that is
what they call apple essence and it is sold to people who want their
products (shampoo, soap, cider, etc.) to smell like apples. We had to figure
out a way for us to trap it on our small scale.
As another objective, my wife likes bubbles--a la champagne, and so we felt
that a sparkling cider with apple aroma and some residual sweetness would
make for an interesting cider. To get the sparkle meant to perform a second
fermentation in the bottle like champagne methods. Voila! The product tasted
great!
So then we knew what we wanted to make, we had to figure out how to do it on
a larger and more consistent scale since we don't have access to a champagne
bottling line and other expensive pieces of equipment. Again, we went back
to old methods. We tried bottle pasteurizing at the last step of
manufacturing with the cap on to prevent oxidation, to prevent exposure to
the air, and to hold in the aroma and carbonation. By pasteurizing in the
bottle, we don't have to worry about the product refermenting while in
transit, in the warehouse, or on the store shelf...it is a stable product
with a long shelf life.
As for clarity of the cider, we use pectin enzymes and racking during the
first fermentation in the barrels to achieve this so the cider is fairly
clear. Since we don't perform a disgorgement after the second fermentation,
the yeasts from the second fermentation lay on the bottom of the bottle
unless shake up before serving. No one seems to care because the last glass
may be cloudy because it still tastes very good.
So to wrap this up, we don't ferment pasteurized apple juice...we ferment
fresh and raw juice. As the last step, we pasteurize for the reasons
mentioned. Each to his own and viva diversity!!
Bill Rhyne
Rhyne Cyder
------------------------------
Subject: Re: serving the kids
From: tjhiggin@chris.iss.ingr.com (T.J. Higgins)
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 99 15:41:53 CDT
Lauria Watts writes:
> *I* may want to drink a product with more alcohol, but I don't think I
> should be feeding this to my grade school kids, right?
I've never done it, but one thing that can be done is to boil off the
alcohol after fermentation is finished. That is the way homebrewers
make low/no-alcohol beer. Since alcohol has a lower boiling point
than apple juice, it is theoretically possible to heat the fermented
cider to just above the boiling point of alcohol. You would have to
be VERY careful to control the temperature closely. Also, such a
process might cause the cider to develop off-flavors.
Let us know if you try it and how it works out.
- --
T.J. Higgins
tjhiggin@ingr.com
Huntsville, AL
------------------------------
Subject: Pasteurisation
From: "Eddy Hefford" <ehefford@nescot.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:46:54 +0100
If you do not wish to serve your children with full strength cider, which is
understandable, the simplest solution is to make a normal cider and then
dilute with lemonade or water. This is the way that kids in europe get
'weaned' onto wine and beer, note shandy, and has the other advantage of
being cheaper in that it uses less of the apple juice, wine or beer.
------------------------------
Subject: re: Sulfiting
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 13 Oct 99 17:59:14 MDT (Wed)
Dave Burley <Dave_Burley@compuserve.com> wrote:
...
> IMHO, I have no more "attitude" than others who promote
> such a "natural" approach with almost religious zeal.
yes, but two wrongs don't make a right, and really I think there's some-
thing to pursue that will be more interesting if people don't get their
backs up over it.
> Unfortunately, the basic theory of "natural" promoters
> that the "old fashioned" cider was somehow better
> has yet to be proven and, frankly, I doubt it.
There are reasons given that the natural yeasts might produce a more
interesting result. I don't think we know how much there is in fact, but
the reasons are at least plausible. The worst that could come of it is a
bunch of people tasting and comparing and discussing cider, which I think
is not a bad thing.
> It is true that sulfite is not necessary and some British
> cider producers ( in huge vats) do in fact allow the
> juice to sit on the skins and become oxidised, paying
> the price of a dark cider on the theory that oxidation prior to
> fermentation is better than after fermentation and
> that the added complexity is worth the risk...
It's not quite (or not only) that the juice sits on the skins (as in
winemaking) but that the ground apples--with pulp, skins, and the free
juice all together--wait a bit before pressing. Beyond just oxidation
for the effect on flavor, it's done to reduce/"soften" the tannins. That
is something we tend not even to think about in the US since we're so often
short on tannin...but having tinkered around with a few classic cider
varities I can see how you might want to tone them down if you could.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #831
*************************
