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Cider Digest #0738
Subject: Cider Digest #738, 22 April 1998
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #738 22 April 1998
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #737, 15 April 1998 (Dave Kain)
Re: Where does apple flavor come from? ("Mr. Warren Place")
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #737, 15 April 1998
From: dpk1@nysaes.cornell.edu (Dave Kain)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:23:28 -0400 (EDT)
In reply to:
>Subject: Where does apple flavor come from?
>From: "David Johnson" <dmjalj@inwave.com>
>Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:21:48 -0500
>
>This goes back to my first batches of cider. which was made as follows: 2
>gal of fresh pressed cider from my early trees ( Approximately equal parts
>of Lubske Queen, Red Astrachen, and Irish Peach), 2 gal commercial apple
>juice, 2lbs light brown sugar, 2 lbs dark brown sugar. This made
>approximately 4 gals of juice OG 1.094 (pH 3.8) which I did not boil but
>sulfited and had a heck of a time getting started. I tried 2 starters of
>ale yeasts before pitching some champagne yeast and it finally took off and
>fermented down to 1.000. I bottled it sparkling and there are no off
>flavors. It is very dry and my wife says that it doesn't have as much apple
>character as some commercial cider I bought. ( I think that may in part be
>because the commercial cider is sweet). To me it tastes like a decent white
>wine. I postulate my mistakes could be 1) making cider with my early season
>fruit (I would like not to believe this, I really like the flavor of the
>Irish Peach and the Red Astrachen is mentioned in several texts). 2) I
>haven't waited long enough for the flavors to mature 3) My apple trees are
>still fairly young and are not producing high quality fruit. 4) I shouldn't
>have used commercial apple juice 5) Champagne yeast was a bad choice 6) I
>shouldn't have used so much sugar 7) brown sugar was a bad choice
> Dave Johnson
>
Dave & others,
This is just my opinion but...
You really only made two mistakes with this cider. The first was
to add all that sugar. The second and most detrimental was to compare your
real cider with the commercial products that have all that "apple
character". Commercial cider makers correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems
to me that six-pack ciders, even if they contain a large percentage of
apple juice, are "adjusted" to give Americans what they love best - a
sweet, aromatic (esteric?), alcoholic apple soda. This is not cider! If
you want to make real cider, forget "recipes". Blends are important, as
are some processes (especially aging at least 6 months), but after you've
got the right blend the only recipe you need is apple cider + yeast
(champagne yeast is no mistake, by the way). If you want to reproduce a
six-pack cider then a recipe might be important but I think you'll have to
buy yourself a chemistry set.
And, real (fermented) cider does taste like an alcoholic drink, not
apple juice. The "decent white wine" similarity that you note is the real
McCoy! Age it at least six months, preferably a year, and you might be
more pleased with it.
Regards,
Dave Kain
P.S. They make some real champagne style cider in Quebec. One that I've
had (Sorry, don't recall the name) is excellent and is a blend of some
common local varieties such as Rome & Northern Spy. I don't believe that
they export it, so if you find yourself in Quebec, try the local stuff to
see what sparkling cider should be.
P.P.S. I'm sure that someone in the U.S. is making some top-notch real
cider, too, but I haven't found any in my limited travels yet. No offense.
David P. Kain
Dept. of Entomology
New York State Agricultural Experiment Station
Geneva, NY 14456
email: dpk1@nysaes.cornell.edu
Phone 315-787-2341
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Where does apple flavor come from?
From: "Mr. Warren Place" <wrp2@axe.humboldt.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:58:34 -0700 (PDT)
I'm not sure I can say where it all comes from (maybe Andrew Lea
can help with that), but I can say that many of the volatiles are driven
off by Co2 emitted during fermentation. I read a study done at
CSU-Fresno, Ca a while back that described adding captured volatiles from
fermenting wine back into the finished wine(Muller, C. J. et al). My
understanding is that much of the apple flavor comes from various organic
byproducts produced by the yeast. If you are curious, fermenting a
sugar/water solution (with addition of nutrients and epsom salts) makes a
product that has some fruity smell and taste. I did it as a starter
preparation that just kept expanding(no time to do anything with it).
Anyways, to make a long story short, I added some acid blend and bottled
it. Later, I served it to some unsuspecting freinds who described it as
my weakest cider ever(is that a compliment?). One person asked if I
hadn't gotten it confused w/ a mead when I bottled it. This experiment
only works if you don't tell them what it is.
Warren Place
wrp2@axe.humboldt.edu
www.humboldt.edu/~wrp2
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End of Cider Digest #738
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