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Cider Digest #0791
Subject: Cider Digest #791, 4 February 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #791 4 February 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #790, 31 January 1999 (Roy Bailey)
hygienic applegrinding (Donald Yellman)
cider grinder redux (Donald Yellman)
is it worth it? ("Graham Peters")
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #790, 31 January 1999
From: Roy Bailey <lvcider@westberks.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:42:17 +0000
Here's a couple of bits of news.
Firstly, someone has started a UK cider mailing list. The name is self-
explanantory, and you can subscribe by sending a blank e-mail to:
ukcider-subscribe@onelist.com
Articles should be sent to:
ukcider@onelist.com
This will, I hope, complement Cider Digest, and provide a forum for
discussion of cider matters more relevant to British cider-making. I
shall naturally continue to subscribe to both.
Secondly, a new organisation - to be known as The Guild of Craft Cider
and Perry Makers - is in the process of being set up. I went to the
inaugural meeting at Hindlip College of Agriculture, Worcester last
month, and it should be up and running by the middle of the year, with
its own website.
Members will be encouraged to submit their products for testing, and, if
these achieve certain standards of juice content, additives level, etc,
will be permitted to display the Guild's special seal of approval on
bottles, casks, etc.
Much of the work is being done by Peter Mitchell of Hindlip College - an
establishment that not only has a rapid-results analytical laboratory,
but which makes prizewinning cider and perry.
- --
Roy Bailey - Proprietor, The Lambourn Valley Cider Company
(Real cider from the Royal County)
The Malt House, Great Shefford, HUNGERFORD, Berks RG17 7ED, UK
Tel & Fax: 01488 648441 URL: http://www.westberks.demon.co.uk/lvcider/
------------------------------
Subject: hygienic applegrinding
From: Donald Yellman <dyellman@primenet.com>
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:05:06 -0500
Dick Dunn raises a very good point in digest #790, concerning use of a
kitchen disposal for grinding fruit, and that is: be discriminating in
the type of disposal you buy.
1. All disposals are not created equal. The original disposal I have
used for grinding, the $30.00 model, is a "Grind All". After some
disassembly and close inspection, I am now not at all certain that all
the internal parts are stainless steel, although the hammers clearly
are. The internal basket shows no sign of corrosion, but it may well be
galvanized, that is, zinc coated. As long as it is not cadmium plated
(which has a yellowish color), I don't know that zinc is a problem.
Some apparently believe that zinc pills ward off colds. Zinc has been
used to line food-grade containers for years, but I understand that lead
is now out of favor. In any event, I don't think the apples could pick
up much zinc on the way through, since they travel at pretty high speed.
2. I also inspected the dispoal in our kitchen sink, a much better
"ISE" model, which probably cost about $75.00. This one clearly has a
stainless steel throat, and I also noticed that the throat is deeper,
that is, the distance from the surface to the hammers is greater by at
least two inches. That is an advantage in increasing the size of the
grinding chamber, and minimizing any blowback. On the discharge side,
all disposals come equipped with a 90 degree plastic fitting that
changes the discharge angle from horizontal to vertical, that is,
straight down. I originally thought I might have some problems there,
and had purchased some additional tubing to direct flow into the bucket,
but found I did not need it. Not a drop goes outside the bucket.
3. I have left the rubber blowback guard in place on the "Grind All",
not least because it is a structural part of the suspension, and if it
is removed the grinder falls out. That is not true of the 'ISE'
disposal, which has a rubber guard that can be inserted and removed from
above. I agree that operating without the rubber guard is preferable
for hygienic reasons, and for marginally increasing the size of the
throat. I doubt that this would provoke apple blowback, since the
apples move through there so fast, and there is no backpressure in the
system.
4. One of my original concerns when I built the prototype, and the
reason I started with a cheap disposal, was whether ground apples would
pass through without additional liquid. I am happy to report that they
do, and that clogging is not an issue.
5. I don't know what happens to the seeds. I never really checked for
them, and assume they are ground up with everything else. They don't
seem to add any off flavors, and as long as apple and pear seeds are
non-toxic, I will continue not to worry about them.
5. We do our apple grinding outdoors, and are able to able to use a
hose for rinsing when required. I have also run the hose through there
to try to speed up cooldown of the motor, though I don't know that did
much good. If you really wanted to clean up the dispoal to USDA
standards, I guess you could put a rubber stopper in the discharge, add
a little liquid and a non-foaming cleanser, and throw the switch. I
think there might be some backpressure generated with this procedure,
and I would stand back a bit until I was sure. Once again, it's not
something I would do in the kitchen, or my wife would crown me, but it's
fine for the backyard.
6. We never really timed our processing rate with a stopwatch, since we
were just having fun, but I would estimate you could grind a bushel in
ten minutes or less, especially if you cut the fruit in half first. A
larger, more powerful disposal would obviously be faster. The pomace
does not pick up enough heat in its pass-through to be noticeable, but,
again, I have not checked it with a thermometer. I have tried pears,
and it works as well as for apples. I think even grapes would work, if
you wanted to increase the juice yield.
7. I guess you could design your unit to discharge directly to your
press, as long as you can fit the press under the table. I wouldn't
recommend trying to route the slurry with plastic tubing or such, since
that might lead to some clogging and backpressure. The height of my
table, 36 inches, is merely a convenient working height, which
discharges nicely into my bucket. Some disposals may be longer than
others, reducing the clearance below, but the height of the table
surface is up to you. Cidermaker Bob Capshew plans to use an old sink
to mount his disposal. That will work fine as long as long as he can
still get a bucket under the unit. I originally considered using a sink
myself, but didn't happen to have one around, and did have a piece of
countertop. It goes without saying that one side of the table must be
completely open to insert and remove the bucket.
8. I say again, my experience is with use of fine-mesh nylon pressing
bags, which are readily available at winemaking shops. I don't know
what your pressing basket looks like Dick, but if it is lined with a
nylon bag it should work fine. The slurry that emerges from the
disposal grinder is quite different from a hand grinder, and therein
lies its juicemaking efficiency.
Regards, Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA
------------------------------
Subject: cider grinder redux
From: Donald Yellman <dyellman@primenet.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 00:14:55 -0500
I have had a few second thoughts since sending off a msg in response to
Dick Dunn's queries. (cider digest #790). I understand the risks of
beating a fairly good idea to death here, and I may have to eat a few of
my words, but be it so. I've been eating them all my life. It is
important that others avoid repeating the mistakes I have made.
1. I further disassembled my "Grind All" disposal, and indeed, the
upper body is an aluminum casting, but there was no evidence of
corrosion. Beneath the grinding plate, which is galvanized steel, is a
reinforcing bar that holds the two riveted hammers. That bar is
apparently uncoated carbon steel. It should be visible through the
discharge hole, before the plastic elbow is installed. The upper body,
which is sealed to the lower body with a large o-ring, comes off quite
easily by removing the nuts from the four long bolts that run through
the unit. The reinforcing bar did have a light coating of rust. The
discharge chamber, below the grinding plate, is also an aluminum
casting, but again, there was no sign of corrosion. I did find an apple
seed in there.
2. The motor of the "Grind All" is not designed to be further
disassembled. It is staked at several strategic points, and I cannot
even get the bottom plate off. Probably just as well. It might be
difficult to get the lower bearing properly realigned. However, I could
see up to the ring electromagnet through the hookup hole, and there is
1/2 inch clearance between the steel motor case and the windings. I may
try to drill a series of cooling holes in the lower part of the motor,
using a drill stop to prevent going too far. I don't know whether that
will have a significant effect on motor cooling. Frankly, I think a
larger motor is the answer.
3. I may have misunderstood Dick Dunn's query about discharging
directly to his press. I was thinking only in terms of a table or sink
mount, and could not figure out how Dick would get his cider press under
a small table. My press is as high as an elephant's eye. Dick may be
thinking of mounting the disposal directly to the frame of his press.
That might work, but a disposal is a pretty heavy object, and the
mounting would have to be quite rigid. It is also easier to work, that
is to feed in apples, on a flat surface or a sink at convenient height.
When I lift my full pressing bags to the press, I bring the whole bucket
over to minimize drippage and loss. I don't lose much.
4. A comeback from faithful cidermaker John A. MacLaughlin suggested
using a ground fault outlet for the grinder, in addition to proper
grounding. That is an idea that I will implement, since I always use
the same outlet from the garage, and a gfci should probably be installed
there anyway. John also suggested a fine spray of water for cooling the
motor case. I am not certain I want to spray an active electrical
appliance with water, although with the gfci I could probably get away
with it. I might spray it down when the power is off.
5. One other small thing. Disposals have a knockout for installation
of a dishwasher drain. Don't knock it out.
6. In sum, look over the disposals carefully before buying, and choose
the one with fewest corrosive internal parts, the largest throat, and
the most profound grinding chamber. I have to confess I never gave
these things much thought before getting all this feedback. Although I
am a fiscally conservative, not to say cheap, consumer, I may even buy a
better disposal myself.
Regards, Don Yellman
------------------------------
Subject: is it worth it?
From: "Graham Peters" <grahampeters@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:42:42 PST
It is possible I can rent 1-2 acres of land, suitable for planting an
orchard, at 75 UK pounds per acre per year. The tenancy would be assured
for 7 years, with the possibility of extension, and cultivation must be
organic. I would plant year-old trees, probably a combination of
Kingston Black, Tremlett's Bitter, Chisel Jersey, Stoke Red, Dabinett
and a sharp cider apple for blending (any suggestions?), grafted to
dwarf rootstocks. My questions:
* Assuming no extension to the 7 years, would the yield make it
worthwhile?
* If there was no extension to the 7 years, would it be possible to
uproot - with necessarily broken roots - and replant the trees?
Thanks for any opinions.
Graham Peters
grahampeters@hotmail.com
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #791
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