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Cider Digest #0793
Subject: Cider Digest #793, 11 February 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #793 11 February 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Dairy Farming and MLF ("Mr. Warren Place")
Re: Cider Digest #792, 7 February 1999 (tim steury)
Sparkling cider bottling questions (Alex Macur)
sleazy nurseries, good nurseries (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_aka_Dr=2E_Be...)
Re: Cider Digest #792, 7 February 1999 ("Martin Stokes")
Sources for French Varieties? (Tim Bray/Catherine Keegan)
Yeast Nutrient ? ("Mark Ellis")
Re: Sacramento Cidermaker (NLSteve@aol.com)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Dairy Farming and MLF
From: "Mr. Warren Place" <wrp2@axe.humboldt.edu>
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:36:49 -0800 (PST)
I'm a microbiology student and remember reading about silage
organisms in my bacteriology class. You could culture hundreds of
bacteria from silage, but the predominant bugs doing all fermenting are
Streptococci and Lactobaccilus. I wouldn't want either to get
established in my cider. Mostly these bacteria are used for pickles,
yogurt and that sort of stuff. No need to panic or quit dairy farming
(please don't, I like to have cheese with my cider at times), just
meticulously clean up before tending to your cider and everything should
work out.
Warren Place
wrp2@axe.humboldt.edu
www.humboldt.edu/~wrp2
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #792, 7 February 1999
From: tim steury <steury@wsu.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:22:07 -0800 (PST)
I'll add my warning to Dick Dunn's about Southmeadow. I had almost exactly
the experience with them. They even admitted at one point they'd already
sold out of the variety I ordered when my order arrived. Still, they cashed
my check (also for a couple hundred dollars). I did finally get my money
back after eight months--and after repeated promises that my check was in
the mail..... I only got my refund after calling them EVERY DAY and
demanding a certified letter with my check.
On a positive note, when planting time came around and my trees hadn't
arrived from Southmeadow, I called Bear Creek, which is where I had ordered
most of my other trees. They ran a special order for me of benchgrafts,
which arrived in plenty of time for spring planting and in superb condition.
If you're looking for a reliable nursery with excellent customer service and
wonderful stock, I highly recommend Bear Creek. The contrast between them
and Southmeadow is profound.
>
Tim Steury
UNIVERSE Editor and
Research News Coordinator
Washington State University
Pullman, WA 99164-1040
steury@wsu.edu
509/335-1378
www.wsu.edu/NIS/Universe.html
ASK DR. UNIVERSE
www.wsu.edu/DrUniverse/
DrUniverse@wsu.edu
------------------------------
Subject: Sparkling cider bottling questions
From: Alex Macur <alex.macur@mdconsult.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:35:13 -0500
As we are getting closer to those 'cold high pressure days' in March when
we should be bottling our hard cider I have some questions about
bottling.
o Is there some reason I can't prime & bottle my cider the same way
I prime and bottle my homebrewed beer?
o Is the amount of priming sugar calculated the same as beer
(~1.5 volumes of C02 ca. 69g Corn Sugar (dextrose) or ~1/2 cup
per 5 gallons)?
o Any advantage/disadvantage to various priming sugars
- corn sugar (dextrose)
- table sugar (sucrose)
- honey (glucose)
- sweet cider
I have two hard cider books: "Sweet & Hard Cider (1st ed)" by Proulx &
Nichols and "The American Cider book" by Orton. The Proulx & Nichols
book recommends siphoning directly from your secondary to your
bottles. If you want sparkling cider they recommend adding 1/2 to 1 tsp
of sugar to the bottom of each bottle.
The Orton book recommends siphoning into a pitcher, placing 'a tiny bit
of white sugar..no more than 1/2 tsp in a quart bottle' in the bottom of
each bottle and filling the bottles leaving 1 inch of head space.
I was wondering why I couldn't prime & bottle like I do my home
brew beer. Boil an appropriate amount of sugar in a small amount of
water. Place the sugar & water in the bottom of my sanitized bottling
bucket. Siphon from the secondary to my bottling bucket. Finally bottle
from the spigot on the bottom of the bottling bucket with my Phils
Philler?
Would the slight additional exposure to air by siphoning to a bottling
bucket before bottling be a significant additional risk of infection by
acetobater? Will the extra step result in excessive foaming when I bottle?
- --
Alex
------------------------------
Subject: sleazy nurseries, good nurseries
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_aka_Dr=2E_Beer=AE=22?= <drbeer@doctorbeer.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:36:28 -0500
sorry to hear of Dick's problems with Southmeadow.
While it is a little bit farther away Miller Nurseries of Canandaigua NY
1-800-836-9360 has a really good selection of fruit varieties including a
wide range of pear and apple varieties and many heritage sich pippin,
russets, winesap, spy, gravenstein, and others.
We have not ordered apples from them yet (we're still landscaping) but have
ordered other stuff from them and had no problems. We know others who have
had very good results with them. THey seem to be very reputable.
Jay
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalt's
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #792, 7 February 1999
From: "Martin Stokes" <Mstokes@apollo.umenfa.maine.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:54:24 -0500
Terence Bradshaw asked various questions about silage
microbiology and possible contamination of his cider In the
February 7 Digest. I am a ruminant nutritionist, not an agricultural
microbiologist, but I have been researching silage production and
composition for the last 15 years as the research component of my
appointment at the University of Maine. I have been making cider
for longer than that and have had no problems with cider
contamination, but beer is another story.
Terence said;
> I work on my father's dairy farm
> where we feed out fermented corn and grass silage daily. The fermentation
> process is anerobic and takes place in sealed plastic "ag-bags", about nine
> feet wide and 100 feet long. I do not know the organisms that undertake
> this fermentation but know that they are naturally occurring as no culturing
> of the feed is done upon bagging.
The organisms are naturally occurring Lactobacilli and
Pediococcus bacteria which are found on the surface of the plant in
small numbers. Their numbers explode when they have the
opportunity to grow in an anerobic environment (in a silo or Ag-Bag)
with a suitable source of substrate (plant sugars).
> The fermentation helps to break down
> starches in the feed and produces lactic acid, which the cows use to produce
> lactose for milk production.
Sugars in the plant are fermented primarily to lactic acid (4 to 12%
of the silage dry material) with smaller amounts of acetic acid.
Fermentation of very wet or poorly packed high protein forage can
produce butyric acid by a Clostridial fermentation. Good silage has
a persistent but pleasant odor. Butyric silage stinks (imagine a
thousand tons of rancid milk or butter).
> After feeding this feed out, the smell of
> silage permeates my every pore, and I must assume that some of these
> silage-fermenting critters are present on me when I come home after doing
> chores. I try to keep my barn gear isolated in a closet just inside my
> front door, more for odor's sake than for microbiological safety.
You have indeed brought the silage critters home with you. I tried
to brew a US wheat beer some years ago and accidentally infected
it with silage lactobacilli. This produced a wonderfully acidic wheat
beer that really didn't fit any style very well for competitions but I
thought it tasted great. I have had no problem with infecting my
cider because, like you, I very rarely open them and I suspect that
in an actively fermenting cider there is relatively little fermentable
sugar available for a colonizing invader. The alcohol may also have
some an antibacterial effect but the low pH will actually be a
pleasant environment for these organisms.
> I began bottling last week and gave the place a thorough cleaning
> before breaking seals and filling bottles, but I feel that some of the
> silage bugs must have been around.
They probably were but in completed cider have very little to work
on.
> as lactic acid-producing organisms, can I assume that their presence
> can only better ensure a good malo-lactic fermentation in my cider,
>either in the carboy or in the bottle.
You've got me on this one. Hopefully Andrew Lea will answer that
one for you.
To minimize contamination of my hobby by my real job I carefully
segregate all of my farm clothing away from my brewery. I only
touch unfermented must or wort in clean clothing and with a
recently showered body! I am less concerned when fermentation is
active or complete. When I grew the primary yeast for our local
brew-pub's first brew I did not go to the farm for 10 days and did not
allow anyone in my lab who had been to the farm. All growth
media were autoclaved and all yeast transfers were done in a
laminar flow hood. That yeast was clean and has been repitched
for three years now.
Certainly there are potential problems with living on a dairy farm but
care at the most important times should get you through. You
have posted many times to this Digest but I don't remember you
complaining of any contamination problems before. Right Terence?
Martin Stokes
BJCP National Judge
Cidermaker of the Year, 1994
Home phone 207-827-5659
Work phone 207-581-2737
Work fax 207-581-2744
Stokes@maine.maine.edu
Fermentation - - anerobic microbial metabolism of
carbohydrate to a waste product that they excrete,
either alcohol or acid.
------------------------------
Subject: Sources for French Varieties?
From: Tim Bray/Catherine Keegan <keegan@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:32:17 -0800
Does anyone know where an American grower (California) might obtain French
cider apple cultivars (whips, grafts, scions, buds, whatever)? I am
completely mad for French cider, such as the Duche de Longueville "Muscadet
de Dieppe" and others, and I would eventually like to try making cider in
that style. I have some acreage where I am planting several American and
English cider apple varieties, and would like to work some French into the
mix. The label on the "Muscadet de Dieppe" bottle helpfully lists four
varieties:
"BEDAN, full rich and dry.
ANTOINETTE, soft dry and elegant.
MUSCADET DE DIEPPE, sweet with distinctive apple flavours.
ARGILE ROUGE BRUYERE, sweet with great finesse."
I'd be curious to know how these would be classified in the English system
(sharp, bittersweet, etc.), and whether they are similar to any of the more
readily available varieties.
The only French varieties available from the nurseries I have contacted are
"Muscat de Bernay" (Sonoma Antique Apple Nursery - unavailable this year)
and "Michelin" (from Raintree, but I think Andrew Lea was unimpressed with
its varietal character).
By the way, thanks to Dick Dunn and to all of the contributors, for the
great information being disseminated through this list. For us wannabe
cidermakers, this is an invaluable resource! (As is Andrew Lea's Web site,
if anyone has not already been there!)
Regards,
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Yeast Nutrient ?
From: "Mark Ellis" <mellis@gribbles.com.au>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:46:12 +1100
Hi All,
I am new to cider making, and have a question that I need answered if I may
ask.
What is type of chemical is yeast nutrient made up of. I have seen it
labelled as both potassium sulphate/phosphate and disodium phosphate? What
gives?
Aside from my general need to know everything, because I am a sticky beak, I
work for a pathology company and I can get chemicals ( even food grade) for
an absolute song!!
Thanks for any assistance, and thanks for a great list!!
Regards
Mark E. in Oz
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Sacramento Cidermaker
From: NLSteve@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:42:00 EST
Regarding the request from Great Fermentations for a professional cidermaker
in Sacramento: I didn't know there was one until today: try Two River Cider
Company, 4311 Attawa Ave., Suite 103, Sacramento, CA 95822. They are at (916)
456-1614. I know nothing about them except they've been in business for about
3 years and the contact name I have is Vincent Stern. Of course, there are a
number of cidermakers in the foothills to the east, & if you need any names I
believe I've got a few around. Good luck.
Steve
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End of Cider Digest #793
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