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Cider Digest #0795
Subject: Cider Digest #795, 22 February 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #795 22 February 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Welcome (Jeff Peters)
Re: Cider Digest #793 + 794, Feb. 1999 (Claude JOLICOEUR)
Cornelius kegs (Andrew Lea)
Re: Cider Digest #794, 19 February 1999 (GREATFERM@aol.com)
Custom Grafted Trees (Donald Wegeng)
Re: Cider apples/Bear Creek (Ian Merwin)
a press design (Brian Ross)
nursery stock (Donald Yellman)
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Subject: Re: Welcome
From: Jeff Peters <jjpeters@alcor.concordia.ca>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:43:11 -0500 (EST)
Not sure where I should send questions, but I'm excited to find this
mailing list! Just brewing my first batch of cider (remember when you were
all rookies?) and I am so stoked for it to turn out. Two questions: any
Canadians on this list? (please email me!) And, does anyone have a recipe
that is on the same level as Strongbow english cider?
Again, looking forward to gain from your wisdom. Oh, by the way...I saw a
recipe for Scrumpy that called for raw meat during the fermentation
process (?????) was this a joke?
Jeff Peters
Montreal, Quebec
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #793 + 794, Feb. 1999
From: Claude JOLICOEUR <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:21:44 -0500
I guess this is my first intervention in this discussion list. I've been
reading it for about 4 months now and find it quite interesting. I'd like
to take the opportunity to thank and congratulate Dick Dunn who takes care
of it.
First, I would have a couple of questions :
A couple of years ago, I recieved some cider apple scion wood from the
Canadian Clonal Genebank in Ontario. One of the varieties was tagged as
Coutes Jersey. I ordered it even if I had no information on it. However,
since that time, I discovered that there exist a Coat Jersey - cf Morgan
and Richards, The Book of Apples - which is a bittersweet. I am thus
wondering if Coutes Jersey is really an apple cultivar or if it just a
typing error of the name Coat Jersey.
I started collecting and testing European cider apple varieties about 8
years ago. When I say testing, I really mean it because my small orchard is
near Quebec City, in canadian climatic zone 4 - lowest winter temperature
often reaches -35C here. Up to now, I have harvested small amounts of
Chisel Jersey, Brown's apple, Breakwell's seedling and Tremlett's bitter,
and I have another half dozen varieties that should start producing within
a couple of years. There is however one variety, famous for its quality,
that I'd like to test but I've never been able to find a source for it :
Kingston black. Would someone know a canadian source for it or know about
its hardiness in cold regions? I would also be interested by some sweets -
it seems that all the varieties I've been able to get are sharps and
bittersweets.
Now, Re : Cider Digest #793, 11 February 1999
>Subject: Sparkling cider bottling questions
>From: Alex Macur <alex.macur@mdconsult.com>
>I was wondering why I couldn't prime & bottle like I do my home
>brew beer. Boil an appropriate amount of sugar in a small amount of
>water. Place the sugar & water in the bottom of my sanitized bottling
>bucket. Siphon from the secondary to my bottling bucket. Finally bottle
I've been doing exactly that for the last 10 years and I can't see any
problem. This way, I think the sugar mixes better in the cider and also,
it's easier not to take the lees when siphoning. I normally use between 15
and 20 ml of dextrose per litre for a Champagne dosage (in Champagne
bottles). Sometimes I bottle in not-so-solid bottles like beer bottles and
I then use 7 to 10 ml of dextrose per litre. These dosages would apply to
completely fermented (dry) cider.
>Subject: Sources for French Varieties?
>From: Tim Bray/Catherine Keegan <keegan@ix.netcom.com>
>Does anyone know where an American grower (California) might obtain French
>cider apple cultivars (whips, grafts, scions, buds, whatever)?
>The label on the "Muscadet de Dieppe" bottle helpfully lists four
>varieties:
> "BEDAN, full rich and dry.
> ANTOINETTE, soft dry and elegant.
> MUSCADET DE DIEPPE, sweet with distinctive apple flavours.
> ARGILE ROUGE BRUYERE, sweet with great finesse."
>I'd be curious to know how these would be classified in the English system
>(sharp, bittersweet, etc.), and whether they are similar to any of the more
>readily available varieties.
I have some Muscadet de Dieppe, it's growing well but hasn't started to
produce yet. I got it from Center for Plant Health in British Columbia. I
don't know if they ship in USA. The last catalog I got is dated 1996.
Address is 8801 East Saanich rd, Sidney, BC, Canada, (604) 363-6650.
I will now refer to Bore and Fleckinger, "Pommiers a cidre - varietes de
France", 1997. The following classes are mentioned:
Douces (sweet), high in sugar
Ameres (bitter), high in tannins
Acidulees or aigres (sharp), high in acid.
It is said that the sharps are rather used for unfermented apple juice. The
2 first categories are perferred for cider.
Muscadet de Dieppe is classified as "Douce amere", Antoinette and Bedan as
"douces", Argile rouge as "douce legerement amere" (slightly bitter).
Finally, Re : Cider Digest #793, 11 February 1999
>Subject: French varieties
>From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
>It would be really handy to get a listing of French varietes though
This book I just mentioned by Bore and Fleckinger is exactly that. You can
order it at INRA Editions (http://www.inra.fr/). It's huge (771 pages) and
expensive. Over 300 varieties are meticulously described and there are
numerous photographs and drawings. Published in 1997. In French...
Claude Jolicoeur, Quebec
cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca
------------------------------
Subject: Cornelius kegs
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:34:43 -0500
John Wilkinson asked
>Can mead, cider, and/or wine be aged in sealed Cornelius kegs?<
I've done this for several years. But no cider profits from ageing in the
presence of air. So what I do is to prime my cider (if not naturally
conditioning) and then put it in the Cornelius keg to re-ferment. The CO2
keeps it fresh indefinitely (at least 12 months) and if it exceeds 5 (?)
psi will blow off through the vent anyway. When I want to put it in a
plastic dispensing keg for drinking natural carbonated draught, I place the
Cornelius in a fridge for 48 hours to dissolve the CO2 back into the cider,
and then quickly decant it into the plastic keg to keep as much 'natural'
gas as possible. This works well. To be honest, though, the only reason I
do it is because I 'inherited' 5 Corny kegs which were otherwise destined
for the dump and I couldn't bear to see them being wasted. I don't think
anyone in the UK at least could afford to buy them for that purpose!
BTW CO2 is a much better bet for external sparging of ciders than is
nitrogen. The dissolved CO2 (one volume or so before any bubbles are
apparent) actually enhances cider flavours in a way that nitrogen never
can. Try it and see!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #794, 19 February 1999
From: GREATFERM@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:55:49 EST
<< her favorite singer tossed her an apple which she caught & now we're
vigorously trying to find some way, any way to preserve it. >>
Lots of possibilities here ! The Russians keep Lenin packed in helium.
I do believe, however, that he has shrivelled somewhat.
Irradiation ! Get someone at your local nuclear power plant to lower the
apple into the reactor on a string until it just begins to glow. Makes a
lovely nightlight.
Juice it and ferment it into cider. Save it for a special occasion.
Puree it and bake it into a fruitcake. Fruitcakes last forever.
Jay Conner
------------------------------
Subject: Custom Grafted Trees
From: Donald Wegeng <dwegeng@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:24:11 -0500
Those of you who are looking for suppliers of custom grafted apple trees
might want to check out a web site for a supplier that I stumbled onto a
while back:
http://www.dabney.com/cumminsnursery/default.html
Cummins Nursery is located in Geneva, NY, and appears to specialize in
doing custom work. I have not done any business with them, but their
credentials appear to be sound. They list some cider varieties in their
1999 catalog (though unfortunately they are sold out).
/Don
dw@gsp.org
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider apples/Bear Creek
From: Ian Merwin <im13@cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:08:32 -0500
Cider Folks-
Just a following note on the recent entries about Bear Creek Nursery
and cider apples: I've been buying trees from them for several years,
with generally good results. About a year ago I talked with them about
propagating bittersweets and bittertarts for US cidermakers. They are
a logical source for such apples, since they already provide an
extensive selection of antique varieties, and are reasonably priced
compared with most other sources for such apples. They indicated that
they were interested in supplying cider makers with good varieties, and
I sent them a suggestion list of about 40 varieties selected from the
French and English "elite" varieties preferred for the regional A.O.C.s
in Bretagne and Normandie, and by commercial growers in the West
Country of England. I have not heard from them recently, but they may
now be propagating some of these trees for sale the near future.
Another new source for cider apples is:
<fontfamily><param>Times</param><bigger>Cider Hill Nursery. Managed by
Lee and Mary Elliott, 1852 Woodson-Winchester Rd., Winchester, IL,
62694 (217-882-2047). Specializing in hard cider apples, will custom
propagate, mostly English varieties available at $12 per tree on
various rootstocks.
</bigger></fontfamily>
*************************
Ian Merwin (im13@cornell.edu)
Associate Professor of Pomology
118 Plant Science Bldg.
Dept. of Fruit and Vegetable Science
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, 14853
Tel. 607-255-1777
URL. http://www.fvs.cornell.edu/Faculty/php/IanMerwin/iam.html
------------------------------
Subject: a press design
From: Brian Ross <rossoon@imag.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:28:24 -0800 (PST)
Apple press design
Brian Ross
Aside from drinking it, my first exposure to cider making was this fall. I
partnered with a neighbour who knows what he's doing. My contribution was
building a press.
The basic design came off the www - and I forget the site. It is a flower
press on steroids, in our case built entirely from recycled stainless steel.
The entire cost, excluding gas and promises of cider, was $180. It folds
flat, fits in a dishwasher, and can be used comfortably in an apartment kitchen.
The components are:
2 X one quarter inch plate, about 14" x 17". four 7/8" holes were punched
through about 3/4" in from the corners (literally, with a hydraulic punch,
at a shop that makes truck bodies).
four 3/4" - 10NC threaded rods, 14" long.
eight nuts, eight washers.
five pieces of woven SS mesh of about 1/16" wire, roughly 13", roughly square.
no-see-um screen from a tent repair place.
two large pressed metal sockets of the sort driven by a through rod, rather
than a real ratchet.
a stainless steel baker's form for slab cakes (12.5" square, 2.5" high, no
bottom)
a large (food grade) plastic tray used by restaurants for storing salads and
such.
Assemble the bottom plate with the threaded rods through and half the
washers and nuts underneath. Put all of this in the plastic tray.
Put a mesh square between the rods. Put the baker's form on top. Drape a
meter square of bug screen over form, and fill with ground apples. (we
rented a manual grinder, kept varieties separate, pitched lots of yeast and
waited a week before this)
Fold the netting over to complete the cheese. Remove the form. Add another
stainless mesh, and repeat until you get to the top of the rods. Put the top
plate on, add nuts and washers. Use sockets as handles to tighten.
We found that only hand pressure was needed to bear down. The plates would
bow when the resistance of the cheese got too high. A crescent wrench was
over kill. Wait a couple of minutes for pressure to drop,then tighten again.
The first press took about half hour for over a cubic foot of apples.
Dismantling the sandwich, folding the cheeses in half, and repressing
yeilded about another 10%. A third try was a waste of time, as the residual
was close to cardboard.
The plastic tray was ten inches deep and as long as the press. We siphoned
from the tray to carboys and only once came close to the top. The wash up
consists of putting the whole kit in a normal dishwasher, and then repacking
into the tray (which comes with a lid).
The whole exercise took six or seven hours to produce just over twenty
gallons of juice. This included a learning curve, and was probably increased
by our segregating the varieties. I don't know how this compares to a
commercial press. It is nice to have created the tools. It is also nice to
put them on the shelf and forget them untill next year.
The most important part of the design is the wire mesh. This creates a huge
surface area of channels for the juice to run out. If I can get a line on
more of this, cheap, I'll build a few more. The major design change will be
to create some stainless wingnuts which can be batted instead of gripped.
None of these dimensions or components is critical. I designed around what I
found in the scrap yard. The only part that wasn't recycled was the nylon
bug screen, the tray, and the SS washers.
------------------------------
Subject: nursery stock
From: Donald Yellman <dyellman@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:37:29 -0500
1. Just adding to the recent exchange of info on procurement of nursery
stock, particularly of unusual or heirloom varities. Years ago, I think
it was 1979, I obtained four antique trees from the old Grootendorst
Nursery in Michigan. At that time, I believe the nursery was actually
operated by Mr. Grootendorst (I think his first name was Henry), but
since then it has changed hands. It is possible that the Grootendorst I
dealt with at that time is now deceased. Sounds like things have gone
downhill since then.
2. There is a gentleman named Nick Botner in Oregon who maintains a
collection of over 1,600 apple varieties from all over the world. I
found his name in the quarterly journal of the Home Orchard Society,
Tigard, Oregon. I think Nick is essentially a hobbyist, who just kept
planting, and planting, and planting. How he was able to collect so
many varieties is a mystery to me.
3. For $2.00 and an SASE, Nick will send you a list of all his apple
varieties, as well as numerous pears, plums and cherries. He will also
supply scions. I ordered four trees from him last spring, and they were
the most beautiful trees I have ever received from any nursery.
4. I have the impression that Nick is not running a large commercial
operation, and it might be possible to overload his circuits, especially
with a large order for many copies of a single variety. But for the
hobbyist, who wants an assortment of unusual varieties for cidermaking
or whatever, he is a great source. When I ordered my trees, I am pretty
sure he went out and dug them and packed them for shipping himself. At
any given time, he may have finished trees available for about 2/3 of
the varieties on his list, but that is still a lot. I believe he would
custom graft for anyone willing to prepay and wait patiently for a
finished tree. He has an assortment of dwarfing and semi-dwarfing
rootstocks. Last year, the trees were a flat $20.00 each, which was a
great buy, given the quality of the trees I received. Scions cost
$2.50.
5. Nick's address is: Nick Botner
4015 Eagle Valley Road
Yoncalla, OR 97499
Regards, Don Yellman
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #795
*************************
