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Cider Digest #0767
Subject: Cider Digest #767, 11 October 1998
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #767 11 October 1998
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
admin requests (Cider Digest)
Pollination ("McDonald, Rod")
Re: Hogg and Bull ("Dr. Gillian Grafton")
Re: Cider Digest #766, 5 October 1998 (dennis key)
heritage apple varieties (Greg Appleyard)
Re: Cider and US Law - Fermentation does destroy E. coli O157:H7 (Mike Wexler)
Re: help! - Getting a fermentation going (Mike Wexler)
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Subject: admin requests
From: cider@raven.talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: 7 Oct 98 08:55:37 MDT (Wed)
Response to admin requests (subscribe, unsubscribe, etc.) will be very slow
for most of October.
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Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Pollination
From: "McDonald, Rod" <Rod.McDonald@dist.gov.au>
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:43:36 +1000
Charlie asked:
> I lost one of my trees this summer and now have but two - one
> of which is a
> self pollinator. Do I need to get another tree or will the
> self pollinator
> have the right stuff
> to give me fruit on both trees next year? TIA, Charlie
You may have already received a better answer, but I'll have a go just in
case, although my knowledge is a tad inexpert.
1. A non self pollinator requires another tree, and that other tree can be a
self pollinator.
2. Pollination will be most effective if the trees are flowering at the same
time. (I do not know how divergent apple flowering times are). If the self
pollinator flowers a little later or earlier than the other, then I guess
you are likely to end up with fewer apples on the other
Good luck
Rod
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Hogg and Bull
From: "Dr. Gillian Grafton" <G.Grafton@bham.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:33:50 +0100
Dave wrote:
> All I have is that it was published in
> 1886. The full title was "Apple and Pear as Vintage Fruit" by Hogg & Bull.
> I believe that a lot of the information from the Real Cider and Perry Page
> came from this.
No it didn't. I have yet to find a copy of this book, but I keep looking. Some
information did indeed come from Hogg's writings, but not this particular book.
I'm blessed by an eclectic library at the University of Birmingham - we have
some great old books on cider making for no reason that is apparent to me, but
alas Hogg and Bull are under-represented. Apart that is from an original copy of
the Herefordshire pomona :).
Gillian
Real Cider and Perry Page
(will be updated one day when I have time off work for good behaviour!)
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #766, 5 October 1998
From: dennis key <dione@unm.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:27:37 -0600 (MDT)
Sorry Doug, the benzoate sodium is a brick wall to fermentation. I made
the same error a few years ago. I had some very sweet, honey flavored
cider that I eventually dumped. Alas!
Never Thirst,
Dione
------------------------------
Subject: heritage apple varieties
From: Greg Appleyard <greg.appleyard@usask.ca>
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 15:24:15 -0400
For those interested in starting or expanding their own orchards, I have
created a resource website.
http://duke.usask.ca/~appleyar/Apple_index.htm
There is a list of apple varieties which are available from other
orchardists kindly willing to provide scions. If you see a variety or two
that you would like to grow, I can put you in contact with the provider.
Currently there are approximately 70 varieties listed.
If you are willing to provide scion wood to other heritage apple growers, I
would be happy to include your supplies in the "availables" list.
Furthermore, if you don't see the variety you want, add your request to our
wish-list and perhaps someone out there will be kind enough to provide to
some grafting material.
Cheers,
Greg
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider and US Law - Fermentation does destroy E. coli O157:H7
From: Mike Wexler <cmwexlerc@snet.net>
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 16:42:06 -0400
1. Yes, there is at least one study that demonstrates effective
destruction of E. coli O157:H7 through fermentation of cider. It was
published in the Journal of Food Protection. The citation is:
Semanchek, J. and Golden, D., Survival of Escherichia coli O157:H7
during fermentation of apple cider. Journal of Food Protection, vol 59
(1996), issue 12, p 1256-1259.
The abstract can be seen at:
http://schoolmeals.nal.usda.gov:8001/cgi/bin/lwgate/FOODSAFE/archives/foodsafe.9
808/Date/article-257.html
(the above has to all be on one line to work; yes, it's a long URL)
I've also included the abstract below for those without web access:
Abstract: Survival of Escherichia coli O157:H7 in fermenting and
nonfermenting fresh apple cider was determined. Populations of E.
Coli O157:H7 were reduced from 6.4 log CFU/ml to undetectable
levels (detection limit of 0.5 log CFU/ml) in fermenting cider after 3
days at 20 degrees C and from 6.5 log CFU/ml to 2.9 log CFU/ml
after 10 days at 20 degrees C in nonfermenting cider. After 1 day of
incubation, recovery of E. Coli O157:H7 from fermenting and
nonfermenting cider was statistically (P < 0.01) lower on sorbitol
MacConkey agar than on tryptone soya agar supplemented with
cycloheximide. These results suggest that substantial portions of
the surviving E. Coli O157:H7 populations were sublethally injured
by cider components (i.e., acid and ethanol). The pH of fermenting
cider was not significantly different (P > 0.05) from that of
nonfermenting cider throughout the 10-day test period. Final
ethanol concentrations in fermenting cider reached 6.01% (vol/vol)
after 10 days at 20 degrees C. Inactivation of E. Coli O157:H7 in
fermenting cider is attributed to the combined effects of pH and
ethanol. Results of this study indicate that E. Coli O157:H7 is
capable of survival in fresh apple cider at 20 degrees C, while
alcoholic fermentation of fresh cider is an effective means of
destroying this pathogen.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
It's interesting to note that the 6 log reduction in E. coli found during
this experiment considerably exceeds the US FDA's juice HACCP proposal.
The FDA HACCP proposal is for juice process controls that achieve a 5 log
reduction in pathogens.
Fermentation appears to be the simplest and most cost effective method of
destroying E. coli O157:H7 in sweet cider. Compare natural yeast cost @
$0 vs. cost of a pasteurizer @ US $20,000.
2. There is no requirement to pasteurize cider before sale, whether or
not it has been fermented.
The FDA's final rule merely says that unpasteurized cider has to carry a
small warning about health risks to certain people. This final rule only
applies if you engage in interstate commerce. Quoting from the final
rule, published in the Federal Register on July 8, 1998: "Juice that is a
product of solely intrastate activities (e.g., source of components,
locations of sales, etc.) is not subject to FDA's jurisdiction and thus,
would not be subject to the warning statement requirement."
3. Your local and state governments regulate the sale of alcoholic
beverages. The BATF regulates production, taxation and interstate
commerce of alcohol. The BATF also regulates the labeling of wine or
cider that is 7% alcohol or greater. If the alcohol content of the wine
or cider is less than 7%, the FDA regulates labeling.
Regards
Please note anti-spam e-mail: remove the two c's to reply
------------------------------
Subject: Re: help! - Getting a fermentation going
From: Mike Wexler <cmwexlerc@snet.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 12:31:00 -0400
I ran into a similar situation with a must that inadvertently had some
preservative added. Basically, you have to kill the preservative somehow.
If it's sulfites, it's a matter of waiting while the sulfite content
decreases. This can take quite a while.
I thought that boiling might help break down the preservative, so this is
a method I used to get a fermentation going:
1. Make a starter using 16-20 ounces (or more) of certified organic,
pasteurized apple juice (available from your natural food store) and
Lalvin's K1V-1116 yeast.
For info on the Lalvin yeast, see:
http://www.lallemand.com/brew/K1V.htm
2. The day after the starter is made (it should be bubbling pretty well),
boil the must for about 15 minutes and then allow it cool below 85 deg F.
3. Pitch the yeast starter into the cooled must, attach an airlock and
set this fermenter aside for a while.
4. Patience. It took more than two weeks for a moderate fermentation to
start in my case. I didn't touch the fermenter for a couple of months.
The finished product was delicious, so it was worth the effort for me.
Good luck!
Disclaimer: I have no connection with Lallemand; I'm just a very
satisfied customer.
Please note anti-spam email: remove the two c's when replying
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End of Cider Digest #767
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