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Cider Digest #0794
Subject: Cider Digest #794, 19 February 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #794 19 February 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
sugar priming (Steve Butts)
bad and good nurseries (Dick Dunn)
Re: nurseries (leep@magpage.com)
Re: Cider Digest #793, 11 February 1999 (William J. Rhyne)
preserving a whole apple (Greg Appleyard)
aging in kegs (John Wilkinson)
Yeast nutrient (Andrew Lea)
Malo-lactic (Andrew Lea)
French varieties (Andrew Lea)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: sugar priming
From: Steve Butts <stephen.j.butts@lawrence.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:05:21 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
To Alex Macur and others who like the sparkling end of the continuum:
I do not recommend priming with corn sugar. For me, it seems to
produce a hard, bitter aftertaste that is faint but perceivable in the
cider (not so, of course, in beer, where if it exists it's covered by
the hops). What I do is freeze a bit of the original must and add
about an ounce to each 12-oz. bottle at bottling. This takes some time
to develop a fizz, but since I cellar for at least 6 months this is not
a problem.
I you DO decide to go with tried-and-true corn sugar, try a 6-pack with
fresh juice and compare the results. I may just have an odd palate.
- ----------------------
Steve Butts, Lawrence University
stephen.j.butts@lawrence.edu
____________________________________________________________
Marx was wrong. History repeats itself THREE times: once
as tragedy, then as farce, and finally as a TV commercial.
____________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Subject: bad and good nurseries
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 12 Feb 99 09:03:16 MST (Fri)
tim steury <steury@wsu.edu> wrote:
> I'll add my warning to Dick Dunn's about Southmeadow. I had almost exactly
> the experience with them...
I suppose it's nice (in a perverse way) to have my opinions of them
confirmed.
> On a positive note, when planting time came around and my trees hadn't
> arrived from Southmeadow, I called Bear Creek, which is where I had ordered
> most of my other trees. They ran a special order for me of benchgrafts,
> which arrived in plenty of time for spring planting and in superb condition.
> If you're looking for a reliable nursery with excellent customer service and
> wonderful stock, I highly recommend Bear Creek. The contrast between them
> and Southmeadow is profound.
Yes, I've also had good experience with Bear Creek. The only down-side
with them is that they only have a few traditional cider apple varieties.
But my experience is the same as Tim's--they supply good trees and they've
got good service. They also have an informative catalog and they're help-
ful.
One particularly valuable service is their bench-grafting: Almost all of
the varieties they carry are available as bench grafts, meaning that you
tell them what variety you want and what rootstock you want it on. They
will do the custom graft for you. This does mean that you start out with
a brand-new tiny tree; you lag about a year behind where you'd be with a
whip. But this is offset by the fact that you can actually get what you
need. For example, I want semi-dwarf trees; I've got relatively heavy
soil; I'm in an area with fireblight problems; I'm roughly in a "Zone 4".
These factors taken together suggest M7 rootstock. So I can order (say) a
Westfield Seek-no-further on EMLA-7 and they'll graft one--I don't have to
worry about finding a supplier with that oddball combination and they don't
have to worry about which subset of the cross-product of apple varieties
and rootstock will be likely to sell. Their bench grafts are $5-6 for the
common rootstocks and about $8 for inter-stem combinations.
(fax 509-732-4417, phone 509-732-6219)
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: nurseries
From: leep@magpage.com
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 18:54:24 +0000
Because of earlier discussions here, last Fall I placed an order for 2 scions of
each of 18 cultivars from Sonoma County Nurseries, requesting delivery in early
Feb. Within a week I received an invoice with shipping date listed to be 9 Feb
99. I received the scions on 11 Feb. All the shoots looked sturdy and healthy.
I'm satisfied.
DL
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #793, 11 February 1999
From: rhyne@pop.winterlan.com (William J. Rhyne)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:43:23 -0800
RE: Alex Macur's sparkling cider questions
If the goal is carbonation, a person could probably add sugar as they were
doing with beer for conditioning. Honey might be interesting by I have not
tried it. At Rhyne Cyder, we loved the aroma of apples fermenting in the
barn but did not like the idea that we were losing that aroma. So by
introducing juice at bottling for bottle conditioning we feel that we have
been able to capture some of the apple aroma in the bottle so people can
experience the apple aroma at consumption. We are using champagne bottles
that are heavier glass than beer bottles minimize breakage or exploding
bottles. At this point we are focusing on exploring the apple flavor
potential so we are not interested in adding other ingredients.
Re: bittersweet apples
We had the chance to try some Yarlington Mill and Nehou apples from Sonoma
Antique Apple Nursery. Biting into the apple, it was sweet and the bitter
flavors reminded me of dark brewed tea. It was very interesting. It
reinforces the fact there is so much variation in the types and flavors of
apples. Hopefully we can get affordable and large size supplies of these
kind of apples in the future to try fermenting in large quantities.
Bill Rhyne
===========================
William J. Rhyne
===========================
------------------------------
Subject: preserving a whole apple
From: Greg Appleyard <greg.appleyard@usask.ca>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:18:50 -0500
Hi Cider-folks,
I know that most of us are in the habit of gently rotting apples for the
beverage that produces but I was wondering if anyone had any experience
with NOT rotting apples. I received an request from someone who wants to
preserve a whole apple, presumable for an indefinite period.
You will find the request below:
*************
I know how strange this is going to sound but my younger sister is desperate
in attempts to fully preserve an apple. See, during a rock concert on
Saturday, her favorite singer tossed her an apple which she caught & now we're
vigorously trying to find some way, any way to preserve it. I'm not sure if
you have any suggestions, but please- any help or ideas would be greatly
appreciated!
Thanks!
***************
I would appreciate your thoughts.
Cheers,
Greg
------------------------------
Subject: aging in kegs
From: John.Wilkinson@aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:46:43 -0600
Can mead, cider, and/or wine be aged in sealed Cornelius kegs? I have been
using carboys with airlocks but have had problems with airlocks being knocked
off or running dry. It would seem that if no CO2 is being produced the wine
could be aged in a Cornelius keg. I realize these kegs are not completely
air tight unless under pressure but it would seem that any leakage past the
lid O-ring would be minimal and possibly controlled by liberal use of silicone
grease. My understanding is that red wine benefits from exposure to small
amounts of air but it seems that could be satisfied by not purging the
receiving keg with CO2 prior to racking. When aging my beer I use a shortened
out dip tube to leave behind settled crud and would do the same with my mead,
cider, and/or wine. I currently transfer my beer from keg to keg with CO2
but to prevent carbonation of wine, etc., couldn't nitrogen be used? Also,
if pressure in the keg were desired to prevent influx of air during aging
wouldn't nitrogen serve?
I like the idea of using Cornelius kegs for aging, if it would work, as they
are almost as cheap as carboys now, are not fragile, and take up less floor
space. Any advice?
John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - john.wilkinson@aud.alcatel.com
------------------------------
Subject: Yeast nutrient
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:09:32 -0500
Mark Ellis asked
>What is type of chemical is yeast nutrient made up of. I have seen it
labelled as both potassium sulphate/phosphate and disodium phosphate?
What
gives?<
The point of a nutrient is to supply amino nitrogen for yeast growth. It's
generally therefore AMMONIUM sulphate or phosphate. The ammonium provides
the necessary nitrogen for amino acid synthesis. Potassium sulphate or
phosphate would be next to useless. Grape and apple juices already contain
1000 ppm potassium anyway and it has no effect on yeast growth. Some more
exotic branded nutrient mixes are produced by yeast autolysis and actually
contain free amino acids themselves, plus necessary vitamins like thiamin
and pantothenate.
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford UK
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Malo-lactic
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:09:37 -0500
Martin Stokes wrote:
>> as lactic acid-producing organisms, can I assume that their presence
> can only better ensure a good malo-lactic fermentation in my cider,
>either in the carboy or in the bottle.
You've got me on this one. Hopefully Andrew Lea will answer that
one for you.<
Hmm. Generally the 'right' sort of organisms going m/l in cider work
wonders, but the 'wrong' ones don't - they produce slime ('ropiness') and
off flavours. The favoured organisms in cider are e.g. Leuconostoc oenos
(available now as a commercial culture) and Lactobacillus plantarum.
Others such as L. mesenteroides and Pediococcus spp. are less well
favoured. There's a belief in France that 'good' lactics correlate with
production of L-lactic acid and 'bad' lactics with production of D-lactic
------------------------------
Subject: French varieties
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:09:34 -0500
Tim Brady asked about some French varieties of cider apple. Bedan is a
bittersweet - the others I've not heard of. Michelin is truly
undistinguished for vintage character but is grown on a vast scale on the
UK just to provide sweet sugary bulk. I don't think it's necessary to use
French apples to make French cider -so long as you start with good quality
vintage varieties (see my web site) the English ones will be fine. I make
'French' cider every year from UK fruit. It's the METHOD of manufacture
that's most critical. It would be really handy to get a listing of French
varietes though - I'll see if I can get one from INRA at Rennes.
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #794
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