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Cider Digest #0780
Subject: Cider Digest #780, 12 December 1998
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #780 12 December 1998
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
granny smith smokin' brimstone (Gary Kaucher)
Granny Smith fermentation (Andrew Lea)
cider press (Mirra@aol.com)
Sparkling Cider (jeff.hause@springs.com)
H2S production (Knut Riggert)
Cidermaking (Eric.Fouch@steelcase.com)
98 cider (Terence Bradshaw)
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Subject: granny smith smokin' brimstone
From: Gary Kaucher <gkaucher@prolog.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:16:43 -0500
Matt-
I've made a few batches in the last 7 or 8 years, and have had some pretty
good success. If I explain the procedure I use, maybe you can see where
yours differs. I've never used waxed apples, but I wouldn't think that the
wax would make its way into the juice.
While I'm pressing the apples I spray the crushed fruit with a mixture of
potassium (or sodium) metabisulite, ascorbic acid, and pectic enzyme. The
sulfite knocks off any of the wild yeasts, the ascorbic acid arrests the
oxidation process, and the pectic enzyme is supposed to break down the
pectin and release more of the tannins. I then let the liquid sit in a 5
gallon carboy for 24 hours. By that time a lot of the broken cells and
pectin has settled to the bottom, and because I arrested the oxidation
process with the ascorbic acid (vitamin C) the cider looks yellow like
apple juice instead of brown. If it's my first batch of the season, I will
make up a yeast starter during the 24 hour period. I just mix a pint of
water with Champagne yeast, sugar, and some yeast nutrient (if I have it),
put it in a stoppered jug with a fermentation lock so the yeast can get
started. If you pitched your yeast "dry" into freshly pressed and sulfited
cider then maybe the yeasts were "knocked off" just as the wild yeasts
were. By pitching an active yeast starter they have more of a fighting
chance to survive. Anyway, after 24 hours there is about 1 inch of sediment
in the bottom of the carboy. I siphon off everything except the sediment
into a plastic trash can that I use for my primary fermenter. I pour in the
yeast starter and put cheesecloth over the top of the trash can so it can
"breath" and, hopefully, keep out the fruitflies. I put it in my basement
where it is usually about 58 degrees Fahrenheit. The yeast needs air during
the initial fermentation stage. It uses the air to reproduce. If you
initially put it in a container that restricted its access to air, you
might have keep the yeasts from reproducing. Also, I suspect that an open
container also helps to let some of the sulfites "air out" so the yeasts
have more of a fighting chance to survive. As the fermentation in the trash
can progesses, you will notice the build up of a white foam. By this time
the yeast population has increased and the fermentation is "rockin' and
rollin'."
There is so much carbon dioxide and foam above the liquid that you don't
have to concern yourself with oxygen spoiling the batch. And since you've
pitched it with a yeast starter it gets off to a faster start. I usually
wait for the foam to rise 3 or 4 inches, and then I scoop off all the brown
resins that are on top of it. When the fermentation has calmed down enough
that I can put it in my 5 gallon carboy (secondary fernmenter) without it
foaming over, I transfer it and put a stopper and fermentaion lock on it.
If I were you, I think I would make up a yeast starter, and let it "work"
for about 24 hours. Then I would transfer what you have in your 5 gallon
carboy to a plastic trash can, and add the liquid yeast starter to it.
Cover the plastic trash can with cheesecloth or a clean trash can bag with
a few holes poked through it with a fork. Give it a few days, and see if
anything happens. In the mean time you may have to force yourself to drink
beer!
Gary Kaucher
Riegelsville, PA, USA
PS - Rather than making the yeast starter from water, you might want to
make it from the cider. Just take out quart or so of cider, and some more
yeast, and put it in a stoppered jug with a fermentation lock. Make sure
the jug is no more than halfway full. That way there will be enough air
available for the yeast to reproduce. Let me know how you make out.
Subject: granny smith smokin' brimstone
From: Magunda@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:57:58 EST
With meticulous care I pressed some Granny Smith apples and sulfited with 150
PPM per gallon. I added Pasteur Champagne yeast into a sterile carboy. A
couple of days later the juice turned milky and a white froth formed. The
smell at first was yeasty and then it changed to more of a sulfury(H2S)
stench. The apples may have had wax on them because I bought them late in
the season from a natural food outlet. Anyone know the diagnosis and
treatment?
Thanks a ton. Matt Merliss.
------------------------------
Subject: Granny Smith fermentation
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 12:04:33 -0500
Matt Merliss asked:
>With meticulous care I pressed some Granny Smith apples and sulfited with 150
PPM per gallon. I added Pasteur Champagne yeast into a sterile carboy. A
couple of days later the juice turned milky and a white froth formed. The
smell at first was yeasty and then it changed to more of a sulfury(H2S)
stench. Anyone know the diagnosis and treatment?.<
Granny Smith is a pretty acid apple and I would guess a pH not much above
3.0. 150 ppm is a helluva lot for a Champagne yeast to cope with at that
pH. Maybe it's having problems getting going and the H2S stench is from
yeast reduction of all that sulphite (as in the Digest a few issues ago).
You could try vigorously aerating the whole fermentation to try and restore
some equilibrium - but do it sooner rather than later. Aeration is not a
good idea on finished cider but is OK while the yeast is still working.
If the H2S is still present after fermenting to dryness then try the copper
sulphate dodge mentioned a couple of weeks back. A wax on the apples is
unlikely to be the cause, but if they were organic and for some reason
dusted with elemental sulfur then this could also be a source of H2S.
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: cider press
From: Mirra@aol.com
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:01:03 EST
A local lack of fresh pressed juice that isn't
pasturized ( a response to last year's E-coli
scare?) or hasn't been treated with potassium
sorbate has brought me to wanting a cider
press of my own. Dick Dunn's experience
with the Happy Valley Ranch offering has me
seeking alternatives. Has anyone had experience
with Ron van Noord's press plans? His website,
http://silcon.com/~rvwvn/press.htm offers a set
of plans and list of materials needed. All for $9.95
(U.S.) check or money order; satisfaction guaranteed!
Know of any other presses (excluding HVR) or con-
struction plans ? I'm thinking of pressing a volume of
+/- 15 gallons at a time. TIA for any info.
------------------------------
Subject: Sparkling Cider
From: jeff.hause@springs.com
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:35:43 -0500
I have a novel idea about brewing cider I wanted to run by the group. I
would like to ferment a sweet and sparkeling cider without using lactic
sugars. If I try bottling the cider while it is still sweet (with a high
1.30 gravity) It will continue to ferment and explode. (Believe me, I
know).
My idea is to initially ferment with a yeast that will go inactive at
around 8-9% alcohol and then to prime the batch for bottling using a yeast
that will withstand a slightly higher alcohol content. In theory, this
should produce a sweet and sparkeling cider if I provide enough sugars to
allow for a higher alcohol content. I know this is getting pretty precise
but I was wondering if anyone knew yeast strains that might produce these
results, or another good way of creating a sweet and sparkeling cider?
Does anyone know how to produce a cider similar to either a Woodchuck or a
Woodpecker? Any recipies would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jeff Hause
Jlhause@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Subject: H2S production
From: Knut.Riggert@t-online.de (Knut Riggert)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:42:07 +0100
Andrew,
thanks for your detailed reply. In the time after I got your remarks on the H2S
problem I thought for a time that it has gone. But it hasn't, its still there
and in the meantime I was a victim of either my bad taste buds or wishful
thinking.
I have actually two bits of cider going and both show signs of H2S. To the
bigger sulphurised one I have added a wine yeast called "Oenoferm" which is
supposed to be good for that purpose too. This is the one I reffered to in my
first mail.
To the secound non-sulphurised one I added Champagne yeast (the bottle didn't
say which strain) and it got the same problem not as bad though. So it seems
right not to sulphurise before fermentation and choose the right yeast. Some
people on the other hand say to get "clear" taste sulphurisation is needed.
Apart from the type of yeast and nutrients you use what is a safe reciepe to
avoid H2S production? Is it a problem of temparature, some of the guys over here
are going for low temparatures (below 15 down to 6 degrees celcius) using
special low temparature / high arome wine yeast. Or is it a problem of the
apples I am using having high sulfate contents?
Being in the EC I wounder if I am allowed to use copper sulphate - am I? Is time
solving the problem? I am thanksful for any hints on that problem.
All the best, Knut
Knut Riggert, Kirchstr. 6, 38173 Gilzum, Deutschland
email: Knut.Riggert@t-online.de
Tel: +49-5333-90871 Fax +49-5333-8266
------------------------------
Subject: Cidermaking
From: Eric.Fouch@steelcase.com
Date: 10 Dec 1998 15:45:16 -0500
I've been reading on The Real Cider and Perry page.....
I have a question or two regarding the malo-lactic fermentations...
I just bottled an experimental spontaneous cider last night. It fermented for
about a month (at room temp. in the basement, ~65F), and the airlock activity
was almost non-existant. I bottled in 8 oz. bottles, using 1/2 tsp corn sugar
per bottle (about 2 volumes CO2). I hope (assume) the malo-lactic
fermentation took place during the regular fermentation, since it was
fermented rather warm? Same goes for the five gallons of cider I did thusly:
4 gallons cider, one can AJ concentrate and two pounds honey diluted up to 1
gallon. I used four campden tablets, then racked it onto a Widmere Hefeweisen
yeast cake (German Alt yeast strain). I am thinking the Malo-lactic
fermentation will be taking place at the same time as the yeast ferment (if
the campden didn't kill 'em all).
My concern is a secondary malo-lactic ferment in the bottles causing
overcarbonation and/or bottle bombs.
Any Thoughts?
Thanks!
Eric Fouch
------------------------------
Subject: 98 cider
From: madshaw@quest-net.com (Terence Bradshaw)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:00:54 -0600 (CST)
Here's an update on this year's cider:
11/9/98
1. "Wild" or abandoned batch:
Apples collected from gone-by, unmanaged trees in central Vermont
(1400-1900ft, overabundant rainfall on fairly shallow, rocky soils), with
about 1/3 from fungicide-free SRC's (Liberty, Nova Easy-Grow) from a
commercial pick-your-own in same area. Rough mix 2 Liberty : 1 Nova : 2
Jonathan : 2 Lady : 2 mix Cortland, Gold Russett, Northern Spy. OG 1.058.
Divided into eight carboys: 1,2 Pasteur champagne yeast; 3,4 Pasteur red
wine yeast; 5,6 natural press from yeast; 7 Montrachet wine yeast; 8 Wyeast
ale yeast. All sulfited to 100ppm except 5&6. Press contains healthy
quantities of natural yeasts, but 3-400 gallon vinegar vats are nearby. All
are fermenting well at 60 F.
12/10/98
Tested the sugar levels last week and sampled a little at the same
time.Here's the SG's:1,2 (Champagne)- 1.002, nice clearing for so early; 3,4
(Pasteur red) - 1.025; 5,6 (Wild yeast) - 1.029; 7 (Montrachet) - 0.999, no
clearing whatsoever, less "cider yeast" flavor (what I refer to as a
"buttery" taste often associated with wild yeasts); 8 (Red star Ale) - 1.010.
I am considering aerating the higher gravity sub-batches using a fish tank
pump bubbling through a hydrogen peroxide lock to maintain sterility. The
sooner I can empty these carboys the better, for the sake of batch #2 (see
below). I intend to make some champagne-style carbonated cider with the
first two carboys and can do that at any time now, but probably won't until
after New Year's (when Champagne bottles are free and plentiful!)
2. "Golden" batch:
11/9/98
Apples from Golden Apple Orchard, a commercial orchard I manage in
Champlain Valley of VT. Low-spray but fungicides used, trees 15-20 yrs old
on Robusta 5 or MM 111 rootstock. Heavy clay-loam soil with limestone
bedrock. Very rainy season (near 40"). Rough mix 3 Rome : 2 Empire : 2
Cortland : 1 each Spartan, Golden Delicious, Lady, Granny Smith, Mutsu.
Harvested 10/28, pressed 11/7-8. Run into one 55 gallon food-grade
polyethylene barrel. OG 1.050 at 38 F. Natural press yeasts used, no
sulfites. 10 lbs organic Thompson raisins added, probably more honey to
come soon. Currently in garage (40 F now, 28 last night) wrapped with an
electric blanket to bring temp up. Plan to move inside to 65 F when I can
get the manpower.
12/10/98
Moved inside with other carboys (60-65F) on 11/10. Added yeast nutrient,
which I regret, because the longer I can ferment this, the better.
Secondary ferment/clearing will be done in carboys filled with batch #1.
Will pull some off for 'reworking' if temps permit. Plan to extend
fermentation as lons as possible by adding small amounts of sugar or honey
as it reaches dryness (moving into a cooler area is not an option). I am
very wary of leaving in gas-permeable plastic if I cannot maintain a
positive pressure (CO2 blowoff). Also plan on boostiong the tannin with
strong tea, but not sure of dosage to use. I'm thinking about 20-25 bags to
1-2 quarts of water.
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service Butternut Acres Farm
RD 1 Box 132, Chelsea, VT 05038 169 Bradshaw Crossroad
(802)685-0073 Chelsea, VT, 05038
madshaw@quest-net.com (802)685-4601
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End of Cider Digest #780
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