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Cider Digest #0746
Subject: Cider Digest #746, 1 June 1998
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #746 1 June 1998
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
re: Bottling 1997 (Dick Dunn)
Re: Apple dormancy (Ian Merwin)
RE: Cider Digest #745, 28 May 1998 (Richard Anderson)
Something going on at Southmeadow/Grootendorst? (Dick Dunn)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: re: Bottling 1997
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 29 May 98 00:07:07 MDT (Fri)
"Luedtke, Jim @ MIN" <jluedtke@isisys.com> wrote, _inter_alia_...
> I was recently made a gift of Dunkertons Dry, fresh from across the
> 'pond', and sampled it last night. It has quite a bite, that would
> primarily be the tannin, I presume. I believe I'll have to sip it awhile
> to form a suitable opinion of it, but definitely prefer it to most of
> the draft styles available here...
This is very close to my first reaction to English cider. In my case, I
was not so much taken-aback (well, after the first couple hundred milli-
seconds, which were touch-and-go) as surprised at something so far from
what I had expected. Reflecting on it, it might have been not so far from
the first taste of a dry white wine while thinking of what a white grape
tastes like.
Yes, the tannin can be unexpected, but it's essential to the character of a
real cider. There's also a fair bit of acid.
For whatever surprises such a cider may hold for folks accustomed to the
style more like an alcoholic, carbonated apple juice, personally I point
out that my first experiences with it left me willing to pick up the
janitor-ship of the Cider Digest shortly after I got back from that first
trip to England (seeking mead and finding cider).
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Mr. Natural says, "Use the right tool for the job."
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Apple dormancy
From: Ian Merwin <im13@cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:01:11 -0500
Folks-
Some pointers on apple dormancy and poimology references:
The Digest discussions of apple root temperature responses have been
interesting but somewhat astray. There is actually little correlation
between root physiological status and the growth stage or dormancy of the
aboveground parts of deciduous fruit trees. Roots have no true dormancy,
and will grow and metabolize whenever the soil is warm and moist enough, at
any time of year. This separation was shown by some experiments done
earlier this century, by placing fruit tree branches inside heated glass
houses while the trunks and roots remained outside in frozen ground. The
branches broke dormancy and bloomed in mid winter, while the trunk and root
systems were still frozen solid and inactive. The minimum soil temperature
for root activity is probably around 5 degrees C, and the optimum for most
of the major Malling rootstocks is between 13 and 22 degrees.
The aboveground parts of apple trees have distinct dormancy stages:
Ecodormancy (sometimes called quiescence) is determined by external
environmental cues, and can occur throughout the growing season and during
the latter part of winter and early spring. Ectodormancy (sometimes called
correlative inhibition) is a resting stage imposed by cues or hormones from
elsewhere within the tree, for example latent buds that are inhibited from
active growth by the auxins mowing down from apical meristems. It can be
overcome by pruning off those dominant meristems, bending down branches,
etc. Endodormancy (sometimes called rest or winter dormancy) is under
internal regulation within a bud or tissue, resulting from relative
concentrations or activities of inhibitory hormones such as abcisic acids,
or certain short-chain fatty acids. Endodormancy is "broken" or terminated
in direct response to cumulative chilling temperatures between 0 and 12
degrees C. When endodormancy ends (usually in mid-winter), the buds enter
ecodormancy and develop in response to "heat units" or "growing degree
days" that can be calculated as daily average temperatures minus a base
threshold, usually set at 10 degrees C. The amount of chilling and heat
unit accumulation required to reach each bud development stage (for apples
in the U.S. these sequential phenologic stages are: dormant, silver tip,
quarter inch green, half inch green, tight cluster, pink, and bloom) is
genetically determined and characteristic of each variety of cultivar.
There are tables in pomology references that list chilling requirements,
and the expected date of bloom can be predicted quite precisely using these
tables and recording the daily minimum/maximum temperatures in an orchard.
For most regions of the U.S., you can get long-term data for heat unit
accumulation from the local Coop Extension office, or the regional NOAA
station.
The question of bloom dates may be a critical one for cider apples. Many
of the traditional European cider apples are very late blooming, which
makes them very susceptible to fireblight disease, until recently a major
problem in North America, but not in Europe.
About the pomology references: The standard U.S. textbook is M.N.
Westwood's "Temperate Zone Pomology" 3rd Edition, Timber Press, available
for about $60. It is well written and illustrated, with a good combination
of conceptual explanations of things like dormancy, and practical reference
tables of use to growers.
*************************
Ian Merwin (im13@cornell.edu)
Associate Professor of Pomology
118 Plant Science Bldg.
Dept. of Fruit and Vegetable Science
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, 14853
Tel. 607-255-1777
URL. http://www.fvs.cornell.edu/Faculty/php/IanMerwin/iam.html
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #745, 28 May 1998
From: Richard Anderson <baylonanderson@csi.com>
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:47:32 -0700
Here is a list references I have collected and use. The pomology text I
refered to is Temperate Zone Pomology. In addition there are a number
of web sites to surf.
Barritt, Bruce H., Intensive Orchard Management
Good Fruit Grower, Yakima Washington, 1992
Lea, Andrew, The Science of Cidermaking
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
Morgon, Joan and Richards, Alison, Book of Apples
Random House, London UK, 1993
Manhart, Warren, Apples for the 21st Century
North American Tree Company, Portland Oregon, 1995
Proulx, Annie and Nichols, Lew, Sweet & Hard Cider
Storey Communications, Pownal Vermont, 1980
Washington State University, Tree Fruit Irrigation
Good Fruit Grower, Yakima Washington, 1994
USDA, Soils Survey San Juan County
US Printing Office, Washington DC, 1962
Westwood, Melvin, Temperate-Zone Pomology:Physiology and Culture, Third
Edition
Timber Press, Portland Oregon, 1995
Whealy, Kent, Fruit, Berry and Nut Inventory, 2nd Edition
Seed Savers Publications, Decorah Iowa, 1993
Williams, R.R, An Introduction to Modern Cider Apple Production
Long Ashton Research Station, University of Bristol, Bristol UK, 1975
Williams, R.R,Editor, Cider and Juice Apples: Growing and Processing
The Hereford Cider Museum, Pomona Place, Hereford UK, 1989?
------------------------------
Subject: Something going on at Southmeadow/Grootendorst?
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 1 Jun 98 10:48:07 MDT (Mon)
(relevance: obtaining unusual varieties of apples specifically for cider)
Has anybody else had "odd" interactions with Southmeadow Fruit Gardens
(the mail-order supplier associated with Grootendorst Nurseries) this
spring? Does anybody up in that area (SW of Michigan's lower peninsula)
know whether they're having some problems?
I don't intend to start any sort of fuss; it's just that I got some trees
that didn't seem quite right and (mainly) I've been stonewalled (but very
politely so:-) on an order of trees for this spring. I'd like to know
whether my experiences are unusual.
I received a held-over portion of an order from last fall that didn't have
the care I've come to expect from Southmeadow in the past. For example,
there were no tags indicating the rootstock variety as in the past; one of
the trees that should have been second-year was very small and had grafting
tape still on, well up the trunk (and it wasn't supposed to be an interstem
graft); a "Kingston Black" that has leafed out doesn't look at all like
what I expect of that variety.
Then there's the more recent order...it was supposed to have been shipped
with the held-over part of last fall's order, but "I guess it just didn't
catch up in time." It didn't show, so "I'll check but I'm sure we either
shipped it or it should be going out today", then later "give it another
couple days and I'll check with UPS", then "UPS can't find it so we re-
shipped it" but still nothing, and eventually it became too late to plant,
so I asked for a refund. THAT hasn't shown up either, so I called once
again and it went something like this:
"What's your name?"
"Richard Dunn"
"Ah, I believe that one is ready and just waiting for a signature."
"Well, could you check and let's also be sure you've got the right
address and amount."
<pause>"Why don't you give me that information so I can be sure."
It's this squishy sort of "check's in the mail" and "give it a few days and
call again if you don't have it" interaction that is characteristic of a
company having troubles and trying to hold off customers (neither delivering
nor refunding), that really concerns me. Somehow the person answering the
phone knows of my order but is never in the right place to check it against
any of the paperwork. Somehow I've never gotten any written information;
the only piece of paper I've gotten on the whole affair is my cancelled
check. Somehow the order got lost twice but there's no indication of what
happened. (You'd think a company that had two shipments of nontrivial
value lost would be chasing them down and really raising a ruckus with the
shipper.) Somehow things are always on the verge of being set right but
so far nothing real has happened, and I can't tell from here what is going
on other than that it feels very wrong.
This is discouraging to me, to have prepped an area for planting and then
not have anything to plant, and to be set back a year on getting some trees
to bearing age. It's also a larger concern because Southmeadow is one of
the few sources (that I know of) for specific cider varieties.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Mr. Natural says, "Use the right tool for the job."
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #746
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