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Cider Digest #0804
Subject: Cider Digest #804, 14 April 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #804 14 April 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
re: Cider wine, sparkling cider, fermentation problems (Dick Dunn)
aging (Jason.Gorman@steelcase.com)
Juice yield from apples (Andrew Lea)
Acid Problem (CLYDECIDER@aol.com)
Re: Cider Digest #803, 12 April 1999 (Jeff Peters)
OOPS - I knew that! (Dave Burley)
Priming (WyteRayven@aol.com)
Re: Cider Digest #803, 12 April 1999 (William J. Rhyne)
Re: Cider Digest #803, 12 April 1999 (Rich and Janet Wiedeman)
Re: yield (Roy Bailey)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: re: Cider wine, sparkling cider, fermentation problems
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 12 Apr 99 12:22:53 MDT (Mon)
Dave Burley <Dave_Burley@compuserve.com> wrote:
[speaking of getting into "the 12-14% range which will be bottle stable."]
Just to be sure--I assume Dave chose that range in reference to grape wines
which often have about that much alcohol, but you don't need anywhere near
that much alcohol for long-term stability.
Lots of other little comments...
> You will also have to add a wine yeast
> (Saccharomyces cerevisiae [S.c.] or S. bayanus),
> so that the yeast can finish out higher than about
> 8% alcohol as happens often with "natural" or
> wild yeast...
As I recall from earlier material here on the digest, the last yeast in the
progression of wild yeasts _is_ S.cerevisae. Anyway, grape wines don't
need added yeast to finish at as much as 14%. The natural yeasts are
slower, but they do the job...and for cider as well as for wine.
[re priming for sparkling cider]
> ...Charge each bottle
> with sugar syrup diluted with some wine ( the dosage)
I've never understood why people prime individual bottles instead of
priming in bulk just before bottling. It's a lot more work and it
produces bottle-to-bottle variations in carbonation. If there's an
advantage to priming 24 to 48 bottles instead of one carboy, my laziness
has blinded me to it.
> As you get more sophisticated, you may wish to
> adjust the acidity with tartaric acid...
I suppose my background question would be "Why adulterate?" but if you're
going to tweak acidity, why would you use tartaric rather than malic? We
are working with apples, after all...
later, responding to a question about cider that didn't carbonate...
> Well your first clue was the fact that it took
> 3 months - a sign that the juice
> is nutrient poor and probably fell into the
> lower pH ranges - see above solutions.
Hold on now. We're making cider, not beer. 3 months is really a very nice
duration for a cider fermentation.
And although we've got folk tales from history of tossing a hunk of meat
or a dead rat into the vat to add nutrients, in most cases nowadays we've
got the opposite problem: an excess of nutrient, particularly available
nitrogen, leading to a boisterous fermentation that finishes too dry too
fast. Andrew has written about this from time to time, pointing out that
"nitrogen control" really begins in the orchard. For the vast majority of
us, working with juice from commercial orchards, the trees have been
heavily fertilized and the juice is likely to have more nutrients than it
needs.
The more likely problem (see past few digests for the discussion) is some-
thing different that Dave did point out--the cider had been filtered and
this likely took out enough yeast (along with the slow fermentation) to
prevent the bottle re-fermentation.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: aging
From: Jason.Gorman@steelcase.com
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:03:00 -0400
Jake asked about aging of cider and if there is an optimum time. Basically,
yes and no. Aging is good, but there is no specific time. The longer you age
it the better it will become. I look at it as I like the way: If it tastes
good, it has aged enough. There are some yeasts out there that take a little
longer to age into a mellow cider. There is some info out there describing
these yeasts. My personal favorite is the Widmer Hefe alt strain. It
produces a nice smooth cider in a relatively short time.
------------------------------
Subject: Juice yield from apples
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@csi.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:20:56 +0100
Jason Gorman asked:
>
> What is the pound to gallon yield ratio when extracting cider from apples?
> Bascially how many apples does it take to get a gallons worth? Does it depend
> on the apple or is it pretty standard?
>
Of course - it all depends. With my commercial knife mill and home made
press, using genuine cider fruit, I get about 66%. On a fully
commercial Bucher-Guyer system (minimum cost L250K?) you might get 75%.
But if the apples are really poor quality and give 'slimy pulp' then
I've heard as low as 55% on a Bucher system. This can vary widely season
to season due to weather, even with fruit taken every year from the same
orchards. With mash enzymes you can probably increase the yield by 5%
every time. Proper 'cider' apples tend to give better yields because by
definition they have firmer pulp and don't go slimy so easily. Fruit
storage also has an effect - stored fruit gives less juice because it
goes slimier more easily so works its way through the press cloths and
you daren't use so much pressure! Hence the overall yields drop.
Like I said, it all depends! Anyone know how long a piece of string is?
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- --------------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.oxfordonline.co.uk/cider OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Acid Problem
From: CLYDECIDER@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:47:06 EDT
I have a problem with a too low an acid level in some cider. The reading was
2.7. So this is what we did and what didn't work. To one barrel (50 gallons)
we added 1 pound of malic acid. Taste was good, smelled great BUT within 2
weeks we were back to an acid level of 3.0. So we are assuming we had a ML
fermentation. Sound reasonable? So we took a second barrel and added 1/2
pound of tartaric acid, tasted great, good smell, that was 2 weeks ago.
Tasted some again last night. TERRIBLE! The acid was VERY VERY
pronounced.What happened this time? If I mix some of the high acid tasting
stuff with some low acid cider,which I did and It tasted good, will the
flavor stay? Or will it change as it ages more, by the way the cider is 18
months old now. Thanks for any help.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #803, 12 April 1999
From: Jeff Peters <jjpeters@alcor.concordia.ca>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:23:53 -0400
Quick question people. Let my cider age for three months. Came time to
bottle after racking it three different times, primed with 1 3/4 cups of
sugar solution (for 23 litres/5 gallons) and after a week-no carbonation.
Could this be that there was not enough yeast left to carbonate? The guy at
my local brew shop suggested dropping a few grains of yeast in each bottle
to get it going again. Worried because my cider has become beautifully
clear...please email me directly as I don't know if i can wait for the next
Cider Digest to come out...
Jeff Peters
Montreal, Quebec
------------------------------
Subject: OOPS - I knew that!
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:17:45 -0400
Ciderfolks,
Andrew Lea sent me a private communication in which he said:
>This has to be a typo, surely. No wine or cider I ever met had a pH of
>5 - typical apple juice pH range is 3 - 4, very rarely up to 4.2 in
>single bittersweet ciders, at which point you run the risk of serious
>bacterial infections anyway.
I thanked him for being so gracious, but I was just plan wrong on
these pHs He's right!! I must have been thinking about beers
or who knows what. Grape juice also has a pH in the area of 3
and if it gets to 3.4 and above runs the risk of infection,
since the sulfurous acid content is reduced to near zero.
In poorly buffered juice/sugar combos the chance for a pH
excursion increases and a reading on the pH and adjustment
of the pH is necessary.
Thanks to Dick Dunn for repairing my format problems Compuserve
causes. Anyone able to solve this problem without leaving Compuserve? =
Dave Burley
Dave_Burley@compuserve.com
------------------------------
Subject: Priming
From: WyteRayven@aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:09:10 EDT
Hello all,
I have a question regarding priming and bottling.
I have a gallon of cider that I plan on bottling in the next week or so. I
would like to have a sparkling cider, and I am planning on using Grolsch
bottles.
I was wondering how much sugar to add per bottle. I posted this question to
the Homebrew digest and the responses that I got were 1/2 cup to 3/4 cup per
5 gallons.
(anyone know what this works out to per gallon? My math skills are terrible.)
I want to make sure that this is correct amount in the case of cider, rather
than beer, also, would it be correct for wine as well? (same size bottles).
They also said that honey and brown sugar would be ok to use as priming sugar
(though one person did say that I must use corn sugar, and that I must get
the kind of corn sugar from a brewing supply. )
Also, do I add the sugar directly to the bottles, or do I add it to the
carboy and stir or shake it?
Thanks,
Dawn Watkins
wyterayven@aol.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #803, 12 April 1999
From: rhyne@wli.net (William J. Rhyne)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:53:50 -0700
Re: Jason Gorman's question of pounds of apples/gallons of juice ratio.
Depending on the apple and the press, a ton of apples can yield 100 to 150
gallons of juice. Using our little Happy Valley Ranch press for test
batches, we average 1 gallon for every 20 pounds so 100lbs. of apples for a
5 gallon carboy. Commercial presses squeeze out more juice with the same
apple.
Bill Rhyne
Rhyne Cyder
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #803, 12 April 1999
From: Rich and Janet Wiedeman <pvorchard@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:49:55 EDT
>Subject: yield
>From: Jason.Gorman@steelcase.com
>Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:33:00 -0400
>
>What is the pound to gallon yield ratio when extracting cider from
>apples?
>Bascially how many apples does it take to get a gallons worth? Does
>it depend
>on the apple or is it pretty standard?
>
In reply to Jason Gorman's question concerning the ratio of pounds of
apples to gallons of cider I believe we can provide a reliable answer.
We run a commercial cider press and open the press to the public to allow
people to press their apples into cider. We charge for this service by
the pound, i e, we first weigh the apples before grinding and pressing.
After five years (and over 100,000 gallons of cider) we have determined
that on average, 12 pounds of apples yields 1 gallon of cider. There is
some variability in varieties, age of apples, etc, but the variability is
not significant. Hope this helps.
Rich Wiedeman
Paradise Valley Orchard - Paradise, Utah
------------------------------
Subject: Re: yield
From: Roy Bailey <lvcider@westberks.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:51:27 +0100
In Cider Digest #803, Jason.Gorman@steelcase.com writes
>What is the pound to gallon yield ratio when extracting cider from apples?
>Bascially how many apples does it take to get a gallons worth? Does it depend
>on the apple or is it pretty standard?
>
I find that a 56 lb (25 kg) bag of apples normally produces between 3=BD
and 4 gallons of juice, depending on the season and the type of apples.
That's British gallons, of course.
- --=20
Roy Bailey - Proprietor, The Lambourn Valley Cider Company
(Real cider from the Royal County)
The Malt House, Great Shefford, HUNGERFORD, Berks RG17 7ED, UK
Tel & Fax: 01488 648441 URL: http://www.westberks.demon.co.uk/lvcider/
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #804
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