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Cider Digest #0775
Subject: Cider Digest #775, 15 November 1998
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #775 15 November 1998
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
wild yeasts (Dick Dunn)
Re: Smelly cider (Pug Bainter)
Cleaning containers (Eddy Hefford)
yeast roulette ("Chuck Wettergreen")
Re: Cider Digest #774, 12 November 1998 ("John A. Ray")
Re: Cider Digest #774, 12 November 1998 ("Y. Vetter")
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Subject: wild yeasts
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 12 Nov 98 23:46:08 MST (Thu)
Jay Conner (GREATFERM@aol.com) wrote in a reply last digest...
> ...And from the context, do I understand correctly that you do not
> add yeast ?...
> ...Using any yeast fit for cider,
> and at something above 60 degrees F., you should have active, and protective,
> fermentation underway in two days...
...
Uh...Jay...could we turn the volume down a bit? It's not that bad, really.
We're making cider, not beer. Using the {wild;natural} yeast is not all
that unusual, certainly not reprehensible. And we may not want to get the
fermentation off to a rambunctious start. As various folks have written,
with cider there is a good argument for trying to establish a sound-but-slow
fermentation.
> There are perhaps 3500 different wild yeasts out there, of which only about a
> dozen have been found suitable for commercial fermentation. Why do you suppose
?
> What are your chances of hitting on that great undiscovered yeast that no one
> in the industry has found ? The one which can turn sewage sludge into Grand
> Cru.
> Wild yeast is road kill stew. Sometimes you get a rabbit.
Again, could we moderate this? Wild yeast in a beer would be A Bad Idea.
Wild yeast in a wine...well, some of the best wineries out in your neck of
the woods use the naturally-occurring yeasts. So, what about cider? If
the yeasts are there, let them have at it and I think you'll get a good
result as long as you do get a fermentation started in a reasonable time.
As I recall, Andrew Lea wrote a while back alluding to the progression of
yeasts which will take over in a "natural" (un-inoculated) fermentation.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Smelly cider
From: Pug Bainter <pug@pug.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 04:33:23 -0600
Knut.Riggert@t-online.de (Knut Riggert) said something that sounded like:
> I have got a 50 l batch of cider fermenting well. The juice was high in sugar
> (1.065) and acid 9 g/l. I slighly sulpherised it, so that it has got now 30 mg
> of free SO2 per litre. Its fermenting well. The only thing I am a bit concerne
d
> of is the slight H2S or rotten egg smell it got.
> I would appreciate any hint on that problem.
Unfortunately I don't know what the problem is. On the other hand, I've
noticed this a lot with the ciders I do, and I don't have this with
meads, wines, etc.
What do I do about it? Nothing. I just wait. After about 2 weeks, it's
gone. After about 4 weeks, any residual off-flavors are gone.
I used to try and do something about it, but it was much more work than
it was worth since all I had to do was be patient.
Ciao,
- --
Richard "Pug" Bainter | GlobeSet, Inc.
System & Network Admin. Manager | 1250 S. Capital of Tx Hwy, 1-300
pug@GlobeSet.com | pug@pug.net | Austin, TX 78746
Note: The views may not reflect my employers, or even my own for that matter.
------------------------------
Subject: Cleaning containers
From: Eddy Hefford <ehefford@nescot.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:47:56 -0000
Large plastic drums that once housed orange concentrate seem to be one of
the cheapest and most reliable storage containers except for that smell.
Obviously over time and with usage it fades but in the meantime one's cider
can start to have that distinctive orange concentrate nose. Does anyone
have any suggestions for practical, non-industrial cleaning techniques?
Knut mentions in 774 his H2S aroma, I have detected this in a number of
different ciders over the years and in my experience it seems to be a phase
that they go through. It always clears eventually leaving no discernable
trace in the flavour, in fact if it is poured and left for a few minutes
the bulk of the aroma goes anyway and the cider is fine to drink. As an
aside, this tolerance may be culturally specific in that one of the main
brands of draught beer here in England, Bass, traditionally exhibited a
strong H2S nose at certain stages of its maturation, or at least it did
before they started messing with the yeast varieties, and was not viewed as
a specific fault.
------------------------------
Subject: yeast roulette
From: "Chuck Wettergreen" <chuckmw@mcs.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:02:46 -0600
In Cider Digest #774 GREATFERM@aol.com <Jay Conner> wrote:
><< put them in the cellar at 12 degrees C,
>> 1. The large carboy (54 liters) began at SG 1.055, PH 3.65. It began
>> fermenting after 2 weeks,
>
>54 degrees F is nearly cold storage.
>No yeast is going to be enthusiastic at that starting temperature.
>
>2 weeks ? !! And from the context, do I understand correctly that you do not
>add yeast ? Even a cultured yeast is going to have difficulty starting so
>cold, and as for a wild yeast, God only knows. Using any yeast fit for cider,
>and at something above 60 degrees F., you should have active, and protective,
>fermentation underway in two days.
>
>There are perhaps 3500 different wild yeasts out there, of which only about a
>dozen have been found suitable for commercial fermentation. Why do you suppose?
>What are your chances of hitting on that great undiscovered yeast that no one
>in the industry has found ? The one which can turn sewage sludge into Grand
>Cru.
>Wild yeast is road kill stew. Sometimes you get a rabbit.
I must be the luckiest person on earth. Last year, after soliciting Andrew
Lea's advice, (thanks Andrew) I did a natural press fermentation of a
couple of barrels of apples that came my way. The juice fermented very
well at about 45 degF and is one of the best ciders I have ever made. The
apple aroma and flavor are astonishing. I'll be doing this very same
"yeast roulette" this weekend, and *I* am certain that it'll ferment out
just fine at 45 degF, and taste much better than any commercial yeast
could do.
Chuck
chuckmw@mcs.net
Geneva, IL
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #774, 12 November 1998
From: "John A. Ray" <jar18@mail.wsu.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:45:01 -0800
Greetings
I also have not been impressed with the Happy Valley Ranch grinder and
press that a friend had bought.
The grinder does not pulp the fruit and some of the smaller crabs that I
ran through were barely split in half. The juice yield of the press was
approximately 1.25 gal/bushel. I hated to see the pomace discarded with so
much useable juice left in it!
The problem is the clearance between the teeth and the metal impact plate
on the grinder. If this were reduced (welding a wedge to it?), I think the
grinder would do a better job of pulping. I think this grinder and press
is more applicable to making grape wine.
I resorted to freezing the apples to -30C in the hopes of getting a higher
juice yield from the HVR press but when I tried to run the thawed fruit
(VERY soft) through the grinder it clogged up. I turned to my kitchen food
processor to pulp the fruit wich worked well but was time consuming.
I added some pectinase and sulfite to the mash and let stand for a day,
then hand pressed/strained through a nylon beer-brewers bag.
The juice is fermenting nicely (and more rapidly than I'd like!) at 45 to
55F with Lallemands KV1-1116 yeast. I have used this strain in the past
and the best cider I have produced was from a primary fermentation of 55 to
60 degrees!
In my opinion, if you can smell apples when you walk into your fermentation
room, your losing aromatics that would be better retained in your final
cider.
I'm trying to piece together some type of homemade press but am unable to
find a suitable grinder. The commercial scale grinders I have seen use a
large, many-bladed barrel knife similar to what one would see on a wood
planer. I've had little luck "surfing" and so, put the question to the
list. Does anyone have a source for this type of grinding blade?
Thanks,
John
John A. Ray
210 Johnson Hall
Department of Crop and Soil Sciences
Washington State University
Pullman, WA 99164-6420
509-335-4195 Greenhouse
509-335-2517 Lab
509-335-2553 FAX
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #774, 12 November 1998
From: "Y. Vetter" <yav@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:50:13 -0800 (PST)
Re: depressing experience
Because I've not seen a small-scale grinder/press available to the public
for a reasonable price that I was happy with, I built myself one several
years ago that has worked very well. It is MUCH sturdier than the HVR
press; the grinder has no trouble with any apples whatsoever (including
small, hard crabs) and the press extracts very well, leaving the pomace
only moist. My total materials cost, not including the motor, was about
$200. Unfortunately, the grinder requires some experience with and access
to machine tools to build, i.e., to machine stainless steal angle iron to
make the teeth of the grinder. However, if there's enough interest
expressed from capable home builders, I'd be willing to draw up some rough
plans.
In the mean time, for anyone who has a problem with an existing HVR press
bucket, or for anyone considering making their own press, consider using a
plastic 5 gallon pail. They are cheap and easy to sanitize, if not as
romantic as the HVR setup. Some are sturdier than others; choose a
strong one if you can, and drill 1/4" holes every 2" or so all over the
sides. Make a plunger to fit the bucket out of sturdy plywood backed with
a short piece of 4x4. I built a frame out of fir, and I compress the
plunger into the drilled plastic pail using a long wrench to turn a piece
of 1" all-thread. Easy, cheap, and works perfectly.
Anyone living in the Seattle area is welcome to contact me and come see my
grinder/press in person.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yves-Alain Vetter ___________
University of Washington IIIIII (
Chemical Engineering (o o) (
and Oceanography __O____ (
Box 357940 /\ I |
Seattle, WA 98195 / \ /J |
J \ / | (
yav@u.washington.edu | I \| / (
| | ^!^\___/ / (
/\ ^!^ (____ / |/ (
/ \ // / () |
/\ \ /\ / / () |
/ \/\/\ /\/\/\ /(_/ _()__ (
/ \/ \ (_/ /____/\ (
/ / \ |" "|| (
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End of Cider Digest #775
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