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Cider Digest #0792
Subject: Cider Digest #792, 7 February 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #792 7 February 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #791, 4 February 1999 (jaw12@health.state.ny.us)
Don't buy from Southmeadow! (Dick Dunn)
dairy farming and MLF (Terence Bradshaw)
Orchard for just 7 years!! (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #791, 4 February 1999
From: jaw12@health.state.ny.us
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:31:29 -0500
Not to beat a good idea to death... but I have a few quick comments about
the disposal grinder idea. First off - I think it is a great idea and I
would like to add;
1. I think you could get away with just fine with the less expensive
zinc coated machine. I was trying to think up something good and safe to
coat the innards with to prevent corrosion of bare metals during storage.
I had two thoughts... butcher block oil or carnuba wax. Carnuba wax can be
disolved in alcohol, and when the alcohol evaporates, leaves a thin
protective surface. I use it to lubricate brass casings for reloading
ammunition and to store shop equiment.
2. I would be interested to see how this machine works with grapes.
I know from the half dozen or so variaties of grapes I have played with,
that you don't want to damage the seed or you will get on off taste to the
must. This past Fall I attempted to increase my yeild a bit and tied a
little more aggressive pressing. The must had a clear off taste. I am
happy to say this is going away with the second fermentation and aging...
but I only wonder if I have sacrificed flavor for ease.
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Subject: Don't buy from Southmeadow!
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 5 Feb 99 01:22:42 MST (Fri)
If you are looking for sources for unusual apple varieties, let me give you
a hard-earned personal piece of advice: DO NOT order from "Southmeadow
Fruit Gardens" (sometimes/somehow associated with "Grootendorst Nursery")
in Baroda, Michigan. It has cost me about $300 to learn this, which is a
lot of money for such simple advice.
I placed an order with them last year for some bare-root trees (Dabinett
and Kingston Black). To make a long and tedious story short, they didn't
ship the trees; they gave me a series of excuses why I might not have
received the trees; when it got too late to be able to plant trees last
year I asked for a refund; they gave me a series of dodges about the re-
fund but gave me *nothing*. (The dodges were things like "the check will
go out in the next mail" or "the refund check is just waiting to be signed
and it will go out"...yadda^n) I finally gave up in early June and had
written it off as a loss to a company that had presumably gone out of
business. But then in December of 1998 I got a new catalog from them!
In reaction to this, I wrote to them in January, again asking for a refund.
To date, I have still received nothing.
They have $260 of my money for trees they didn't deliver, plus a long
string of calls I had to make (at my expense; they don't have an 800
number, small wonder!) and they have the gall to send me a catalog to see
if I'll pour more money down the same rat-hole! These folks are Major
Bad News.
They are very tempting, because they list a lot of apple varieties that
cider-makers would like to have. In fact, in years past they seem to have
been able to deliver these varieties...I've ordered from them and have
gotten trees which are now developing and seem to be true. But the last
batch I got--Spring 98 from an order placed in 97--were of poor quality and
even lacking proper identification. An add-on order I placed in early 98
(for Spring 98) is the one above where they stiffed me completely.
I guess what makes me angry enough to generate a posting like this is the
bad business practice. If they were failing and could neither deliver the
trees nor refund the money, I'd be unhappy but I'd understand...businesses
do fail. But they lied to me (the trees weren't sent and the check was
never in the mail despite what they said) and they won't even respond, let
alone refund my money, so I can only assume they'll steal from others as
they've stolen from me, if they're given a chance.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been.
------------------------------
Subject: dairy farming and MLF
From: madshaw@quest-net.com (Terence Bradshaw)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:35:41 -0600 (CST)
First I too want to expess my appreciation to Dick Dunn for all of his work
moderating this list and the mead lover's digest, as well as taking on the
task of maintaining cider space in the future.
That being said, I have an interesting query, especially if we have any
agricultural microbiologists on the list. I work on my father's dairy farm
where we feed out fermented corn and grass silage daily. The fermentation
process is anaerobic and takes place in sealed plastic "ag-bags", about nine
feet wide and 100 feet long. I do not know the organisms that undertake
this fermentation but know that they are naturally occurring as no culturing
of the feed is done upon bagging. The fermentation helps to break down
starches in the feed and produces lactic acid, which the cows use to produce
lactose for milk production. After feeding this feed out, the smell of
silage permeates my every pore, and I must assume that some of these
silage-fermenting critters are present on me when I come home after doing
chores. I try to keep my barn gear isolated in a closet just inside my
front door, more for odor's sake than for micrbiological safety. I have
about 100 gallons of cider fermenting in my living space, one barrel and
nine carboys. I do not open their seals often but do occasionally to test
batches and even pulled a few bottles off from the barrel for consumption
purposes. I began bottling last week and gave the place a thorough cleaning
before breaking seals and filling bottles, but I feel that some of the
bilage bugs must have been around. Given that they are generally lactic
acid-producing organisms, can I assume that their presence can only better
ensure a good malo-lactic fermentation in my cider, either in the carboy or
in the bottle. I doubt that the substrate they work on in silage is malic
acid, but again, I'm not sure. Any thoughts??
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service Butternut Acres Farm
RD 1 Box 132, Chelsea, VT 05038 169 Bradshaw Crossroad
(802)685-0073 Chelsea, VT, 05038
madshaw@quest-net.com (802)685-4601
------------------------------
Subject: Orchard for just 7 years!!
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:26:07 -0500
Graham Peters wrote:
>It is possible I can rent 1-2 acres of land, suitable for planting an
orchard, at 75 UK pounds per acre per year. The tenancy would be assured
for 7 years, with the possibility of extension, and cultivation must be
organic. I would plant year-old trees, probably a combination of
Kingston Black, Tremlett's Bitter, Chisel Jersey, Stoke Red, Dabinett
and a sharp cider apple for blending (any suggestions?), grafted to
dwarf rootstocks. My questions:
* Assuming no extension to the 7 years, would the yield make it
worthwhile?
My first thought is it would be absolutely criminal to plant a dwarf
orchard for just 7 years and then grub it!! You won't get a yield of any
significance until year 5. My organic orchard on MM106 was planted in
winter 1988 and gave 180 lbs per acre in year 3 (1991), 360 lbs per acre in
year 4 (1992) , 1284 lbs per acre in year 5 (1993), and 5000 lbs per acre
in year 6 (1994). It now runs at that sort of level annually (i.e. between
2 and 3 tons p.a) but when it goes fully biennial the pattern may be
alternate on/off years with heavier crops in the on years. So
effectively, for the first 7 years of orchard you may get 6 tons per acre
total over those 7 years.
Let's say that gives a cider volume of 4000 litres and you can manage to
sell it at a clear profit of 50p per litre after taking ALL your other
overheads into consideration (your rental alone comes to 525GBP and you
have to take into account the cost of planting stock, ground preparation,
fencing, orchard mowing, fruit transport costs, purchase of mill and press
(or contract fermentation costs) , purchase of fermentation tanks, bottles
etc etc) and you don't cost your own labour. Your profit is then 2000GBP
over the seven years or just 300 pounds per annum. Doesn't sound very
cost-effective to me. But if you can leave the trees in the ground another
20 years, then it might be worth while!!
Looking at it another way, a good UK open market price for cider fruit
(delivered) is around 100 GBP per ton. This gives a total return of just
600 GBP over 7 years. Your rental alone comes to 525 GBP before taking
into account the orchard establishment costs and delivery costs. 'Nuff
said!!!
* If there was no extension to the 7 years, would it be possible to
uproot - with necessarily broken roots - and replant the trees?
I have done this successfully with dessert apple trees trained in the
normal goblet shape but you must first cut back the superstructure to the
absolute minimum framework - just five bare arms. The root structure MUST
be bigger than the aerial superstructure which it has to support. After
transplanting, the tree must be well irrigated in its first year, and not
allowed to flower for two more years until new growth has been built up and
a new feeding root system established. (With cider trees, if grown on a
centre leader, you'll run the risk of losing all your early years of
formative training anyway because of the need to cut back like this.)
Since a maiden tree will fruit after three years anyway, I question the
economics of this. I transplanted just three trees in this way for
sentimental reasons. Transplanting 400 - 600 dwarf trees off two acres in
this way would be a lunatic operation, I think!!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
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End of Cider Digest #792
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