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Cider Digest #0802
Subject: Cider Digest #802, 8 April 1999
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #802 8 April 1999
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Alcohol, aging and a new planting ("Steven L. Thomas")
Re: Cider Digest #801, 7 April 1999 (Claude JOLICOEUR)
Jake's questions (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Alcohol, aging and a new planting
From: "Steven L. Thomas" <steven@thomasfamilywinery.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:28:00 -0600
Hi everyone-There are two things I hope I can respond to:
>From: "Jake Hester" <<jake_hester@hotmail.com>
>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 07:36:21 PST
>How much (if at all) does cider benefit from aging? Is there an optimum
>time, if so? While I'm asking, has anyone had any experience in aging
>cider in oak barrels or with oak chips? Thanks in advance!
In our experience, cider does benefit from aging, in the bottle or
keg, especially if your flavor profiles extend beyond beyond the
primary fruit, or those intial fruity, apply flavors you get right
away. If you have good edgy structure and the flavors that come from
the orchard, i.e. those "briary, spicy, floral" qualities, then aging
smooths them out and helps them to knit. Simply,aging grows all the
flavors into one big flavor, rather than lots of different unrelated
flavors.
We ferment all of our cider in old American oak barrels that are
basically neutral. We then age on the yeast lees for about 3-4 weeks
after fermentation has ceased. We use bordeaux-style barrels made from
Am. oak, not whiskey barrels.
.From: "Jake Hester" <<jake_hester@hotmail.com>
>Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 06:00:42 PST
>Okay, so I started my first batch of cider two days ago, and yesterday I
>was watching it ferment when I thought: what keeps this from becoming
>apple wine? I'd never thought about it, but the steps were really no
>different from normal winemaking... so what should stop the alcohol
>level at 5 or 6%? I checked the handful of cider making pages that I've
>found, but I could find no distinction. Help a poor newbie, please?
In my mind, (small is it may be) cider has no significant addition of
sugars to create alcohols beyond normal apple sweetness=alcohol. Apple
wine has sugars added to create sweetnes=alcohol substantially above
normal apple range, i.e. 9, 10,11 % ABV. What stops the alcohol at 5 -
6% ABV is that the yeast runs out of sugar to ferment and leaves that
much alcohol. I don't know the "official ranges" but most apples come
to us in the 11 - 14 brix level, which translates into 6 - 7.5 % ABV
fermented to dryness. one can stop the fermentation to get the ABV you
want. I hope this helps!
This last week, my daughter and I travelled from Madison, In to
Denver, In and grafted scions for our own planting at the Doud
Orchards. We grafted Medaille d'Or, Dabinett, 2 Redstreaks- Magog and
Herefordshire, Foxwhelp, Tremlitt's Bitter, Yarlington Mill, Ashmead's
Kernel, Hudson's Golden Gem, Harry Master's Jersey, Brown's Apple,
Bulmer's Norman. It was very exciting to start this project, and as we
get info on these varieties in the Midwest, we'll forward it to the
list.
Steve thomas
Gale's Hard Cider
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #801, 7 April 1999
From: Claude JOLICOEUR <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 21:33:54 -0400
In Cider Digest #801, 7 April 1999,
DAVIDDODGE@aol.com wrote about Subject: No Carbonation!
>At bottling, I added 3/4 cup
>of corn sugar. Two weeks later I wanted to make sure everything worked so I
>sampled a bottle. No carbonation! I would appreciate any troubleshooting
>suggestions. Alcohol percentage is ~8% and I filtered with a wine filter as
>before.
There are a few things I do differently:
1- I usually add a half envelope of champain yeast at bottling. I like
Redstar "Prise de mousse" for this purpose, but Lalvain also does the job.
However, I don't think this is essential because in some occasions, I
didn't have yeast on hand and I bottled anyway, and carbonation occured. I
like to think I get more reliable results this way and a half envelope of
yeast is a cheap investment.
2- I don't filter, but I wait until the cider is well cleared before
bottling. (Sometimes, I have to help it a bit).
3- I wait longer before testing.
In your case, I would think that filtering might have removed a large
amount of the remaining live yeast, but there are probably still some
alive. I would suggest to wait a couple of months and taste again.
"Jake Hester" <jake_hester@hotmail.com> wrote about Subject: aging
>How much (if at all) does cider benefit from aging? Is there an optimum
>time, if so?
The oldest bottles I drank were about 4 years old and were still very good.
This also depends on apple varieties used. I remember having done a batch
which incorporated a good amount of a weird seedling crab that didn't taste
good at all at the beginning. I put the 2 cases aside and found them a
couple of years later. The cider had become excellent. Normally, however,
after 6 months to a year in the bottle, I consider the cider as ready to
drink.
Jake also wrote about Subject: Wait a sec...
>what keeps this from becoming
>apple wine? I'd never thought about it, but the steps were really no
>different from normal winemaking... so what should stop the alcohol
>level at 5 or 6%?
The recipies I have seen for apple wine looked horrible to me: it consisted
in cut apples with water and lots of sugar that was fermented. The result
must be horrible - I wouldn't try it even if you paid me.
I thing cider actually is a true apple wine in the sense that it is the
fermented juice of apples.
What would stop the alcohol level at 5-6%? 2 possible reasons: low sugar
levels at the start, and not enough nutrients for the yeast. But my ciders
usually reach 7-8% (I never add sugar to my apple juice) because I start
with apples that have a high sugar content, and I let ferment to dryness.
I am even making an experimental batch at this moment with a juice that had
a starting density of 1.080. This should give me a cider with over 10%
alcohol. I obtained this juice by pressing apples that were partly frozen.
The ice in the apples was pure water, so all the sugar concentrated in the
remaining liquid. Naturally, this way, you need a lot more apples for the
same quantity of juice. A glass of that juice was really something special,
and I expect the same from the cider.
Claude Jolicoeur, Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: Jake's questions
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 8 Apr 99 11:10:08 MDT (Thu)
"Jake Hester" <jake_hester@hotmail.com> asked:
> How much (if at all) does cider benefit from aging?...
It benefits from short aging, on the order of months. This isn't to say
that you can't make a "laying-down" cider that will last a long time, but
if you can get a nice gentle fermentation, the cider from one fall's
harvest ought to be ready by the following spring. YMMV, of course, but
most cider is neither in the slam-dunk class of ales nor the multi-year
class of big red wines.
> ...While I'm asking, has anyone had any experience in aging
> cider in oak barrels or with oak chips? Thanks in advance!
Yeah, and the main advice there is "take it easy" on the oak. Use a very
little bit of chips (amount depends on the size of the chip and whether
it's new or old oak). Don't use a brand-new barrel; don't use a small
barrel...either of these will give too much oakiness.
> Okay, so I started my first batch of cider two days ago, and yesterday I
> was watching it ferment when I thought: what keeps this from becoming
> apple wine? I'd never thought about it, but the steps were really no
> different from normal winemaking... so what should stop the alcohol
> level at 5 or 6%?...
With normal apple juice, you've only got enough fermentable sugars for
5-6%. I can't tell what you mean by "apple wine", but if you're referring
to the strength, the answer is just what I said. If you _wanted_ to make
your cider up to wine strength, you can do it by adding sugar just as you
would for other non-grape wines, although it's easy in doing so to end up
with an extremely dry and rather thin/hot result.
Many cider-makers add sugar to the must to bring the alcohol content up to
the level that reasonably assures preserving the cider. This is more
likely to be an issue if you're using juice from dessert apples or apples
that weren't fully ripe. Your hydrometer is your friend here...get one
with multiple scales so that you can read potential alcohol directly. (A
dry cider will finish right around 1.000.)
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #802
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